Marriage and other LGBTQ Rights

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

The connection, tenuous though it may be, has to do with your remarks about propaganda. You don't need to read about the five-parent family. Think about it.

Brian, I did think about it. I already guessed it had to do with something the original article said. You have clarified it didn't, but you admit the connection is tenuous. That doesn't give me much hope that I'll guess what connection you were looking at.

My second guess would be that you posted it in the hopes of convincing others that because I found fault with your use of the first article, I must also support oppressive regimes or find similar fault with your use of the second article. But that's just a guess, so I expect I'm probably wrong.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

My second guess would be that you posted it in the hopes of convincing others that because I found fault with your use of the first article, I must also support oppressive regimes or find similar fault with your use of the second article. But that's just a guess, so I expect I'm probably wrong.

That's on the right lines, except that I don't think for a moment you support regimes where gay men and women live in constant fear of their lives and/or their freedom, and nor do I expect anyone else to believe that about you. (If anyone does they should read through a sample of your many posts in this thread through the years.)

The point I was hinting at was that the people in the Dutch article are being themselves, being proud to be themselves, loving who they love, and forming their family in the way that will provide a loving and stable environment for their child. And the people in Uganda who are braving their oppressive society by organising Pride with the slogan "We are family" are attempting to do exactly the same thing. The article about the Dutch five-parent family is no more propaganda than the article about Ugandan Pride is.

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

That's on the right lines, except that I don't think for a moment you support regimes where gay men and women live in constant fear of their lives and/or their freedom, and nor do I expect anyone else to believe that about you. (If anyone does they should read through a sample of your many posts in this thread through the years.)

That's nice of you to say. But I still have doubts, given what people have ascribed to me earlier in this thread. It gets a little frustrating when people jump to some seriously ridiculous conclusions about my position.

The point I was hinting at was that the people in the Dutch article are being themselves, being proud to be themselves, loving who they love, and forming their family in the way that will provide a loving and stable environment for their child.

I have no doubt that this is what you and those 5 believe. However, I do not believe there is any evidence that their family structure is prone to stability and would indeed argue to the contrary. But as that is beside my point let me refocus on what my point is, by asking a couple important questions.

Would that first article have been published by the editors on pinknews if those 5 people were "being themselves" in unsuccessful marriages? Would you have posted it if it talked about how they were currently in a legal battle for the parental rights of the unborn child?

Propaganda is about more than the story, it is also about how, why, and by whom a story is being used.

This set of 5 people was not a randomly chosen set of 5 people "being themselves, being proud to be themselves" in homosexual polyamorous relations.

And the people in Uganda who are braving their oppressive society by organising Pride with the slogan "We are family" are attempting to do exactly the same thing. The article about the Dutch five-parent family is no more propaganda than the article about Ugandan Pride is.

That depends entirely on how the two articles are being used, doesn't it?

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

Would that first article have been published by the editors on pinknews if those 5 people were "being themselves" in unsuccessful marriages?

Perhaps not, though PinkNews does not take any official line on the legitimacy of polyamourous relationships. Do note, though, that the story was actually published by the Dutch language version of vice.com, not PinkNews. As far as I'm aware, vice.com is a news organisation with a special interest in the Arts and Culture, but with no particular political colours.

Would you have posted it if it talked about how they were currently in a legal battle for the parental rights of the unborn child?

I don't know. Maybe not. We have our own agendas, granted. But now that you've asked that, I'll look out for any story about such a legal battle and I undertake to post it here if I find it. I dare say you will too.

[only_human]

In a bizzaro aside to pull back the focus from individuals and to apply gross characterizations, marriages may resemble money or alternatively resemble corporations, depending on whether marriage is the axle that turns the wheel or is the axle grease that makes it easier to turn the wheel.

If marriages are like money, then there are ideas and disagreements on utility functions, broad policy goals, politics and influence up to and including the meta analysis, society benefits and recommendations provided by economists and other masters of the universe.

If marriages are like corporations then most the former metrics may still apply but also macro considerations of mergers and acquisitions, types and purposes of organizations, and different leverage on the roles and purposes of marriage in moving a sociopolitical vehicle in a desirable direction.

These perverse characterizations differ partally by the swapping verbs and nouns. But even in this oversimplification I have a hard time trusting the foresight and benevolence of the stewards of the vessel. And this may be merely one vehicle on the road and who built the roads anyway?

Although absurd, annoying and of dubious persuasiveness, my goal here is to say that herding cats is hard and a lot of people's valuable time and quality of life can be dissipated to the dubious skills of big overall planning efforts.

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

I don't know. Maybe not. We have our own agendas, granted. But now that you've asked that, I'll look out for any story about such a legal battle and I undertake to post it here if I find it. I dare say you will too.

My purpose was only to open your eyes to how others might look at your use of the article, and how oftentimes emotional stories are not really rationally related to any debates we have (but they are still powerful, and useful). Apparently I succeeded at some level!

I don't really care to look for stories about such legal battles because individual data points don't really make my case on this topic (even if they might be found persuasive by others).

By the way, the reason I was thinking about propaganda was I had a similar eye-opening with respect to my own use of language regarding the abortion debate.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

My purpose was only to open your eyes to how others might look at your use of the article, and how oftentimes emotional stories are not really rationally related to any debates we have (but they are still powerful, and useful). Apparently I succeeded at some level!

Thanks, but I am, and already was, well aware of the uses and effects of propaganda. I have flagged such use here on at least one occasion in the past too. I did not, and would not, have posted such an article (the one about the 5-parent family) as part of a debate about the merits and risks of multi-way relationships. It was for illustration and general interest only, interest because such a family relationship is so rare that most people would never have encountered anything of the kind before. And I fully expected everyone here to take this as my intention too.

[Brian-E]

Here's another family photo and another accompanying article, this time in English. It isn't intended to be propaganda. In fact the article implies that the two adults in the picture are no longer together, so this family has sadly not succeeded in staying intact for the children. But again, it's a very unusual family, one which is characterised by people being themselves and organising their family as it suits them and their children to do so.

The unusual characteristic? The father in the picture was pregnant with, and gave birth to, the younger of the two children.

Source article: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-1...birth/6678726?

[xilman]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

The unusual characteristic? The father in the picture was pregnant with, and gave birth to, the younger of the two children.

Nice example.

It is now medically possible for someone physically male to become pregnant and produce a fully viable child, as in the storyline of Junior. It is also such high risk that no reputable medic would consider the procedure ethical.

The procedure starts with in vitro fertilization. It is possible, but exceedingly dangerous for father and child, for the embryo to implant into the abdominal cavity and develop, together with its placenta, long enough for it to survive a subsequent C-section. It is known because this occurrence has been documented a number of times in women. Presumably an appropriate hormone treatment would have to be given to the pregnant father. The experiment has not been performed, AFAIK, because of ethical considerations. I have no idea whether the procedure has been performed on other mammals.

[Zeta-Flux]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

But again, it's a very unusual family, one which is characterised by people being themselves and organising their family as it suits them and their children to do so.

The fact they are no longer together seems to belie the claim that it "suits them and their children".

[retina]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

The fact they are no longer together seems to belie the claim that it "suits them and their children".

Yup. Just like all the other millions of other marriages that suffer the same fate. Seems normal to me.