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 2008-06-29, 15:25 #1 tha     Dec 2002 82910 Posts Bombing Iran's nuclear facilities This post is just a placeholder. Bombing has not yet started. Any news on the preparations, progress and fall out as well as discussion on the subject can use this thread. Now, where is adm. Mullen?
2008-06-29, 15:43   #2
R.D. Silverman

Nov 2003

22×5×373 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tha This post is just a placeholder. Bombing has not yet started. Any news on the preparations, progress and fall out as well as discussion on the subject can use this thread. Now, where is adm. Mullen?
Where are the Beach Boys when you need them?

Bomb, Bomb, Bomb,
Bomb, Bomb Iran,
Get the Ayatolah,
kick him in the can,
Bomb, Bomb,
Bomb Bomb Iran,
Rockin & Reelin',
Bomb Iran.....

 2008-06-29, 16:32 #3 Prime95 P90 years forever!     Aug 2002 Yeehaw, FL 11110000010112 Posts To open up the debate, I'll pose the question: Do you believe Israel has the right to take out Iran's nuclear facilities?
2008-06-29, 16:46   #4
mdettweiler
A Sunny Moo

Aug 2007
USA (GMT-5)

11000011010012 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Prime95 To open up the debate, I'll pose the question: Do you believe Israel has the right to take out Iran's nuclear facilities?
Yes, definitely--I mean, Iran has sworn to destroy Israel, so they would naturally be Iran's first target if Iran finishes construction of its nukes. So, it would be an acceptable act of self-defence for Israel to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. (Actually, I think it would be the same if the U.S. bombed the nuclear facilities, since they'd be the next target, though that's quite unlikely to happen any time soon with everyone so worried about pulling out of Iraq.)

2008-06-29, 18:13   #5
rogue

"Mark"
Apr 2003
Between here and the

23·809 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Prime95 To open up the debate, I'll pose the question: Do you believe Israel has the right to take out Iran's nuclear facilities?
No. Iran has threatened Israel. So what? The same was done between the US and USSR during the cold war and nobody fired a missile. AFAIAC it is all talk but little action. Until you have conclusive proof that Iran will fire such missiles, a pre-emptive strike will only condemn Israel and the U.S.

BTW, you also must remember that Jerusalem is a holy site for Islam, not just Jews and Christians. Do you really think that Iran would destroy an Islamic holy site just to destroy Israel? Such an attack would undoubtably have terrible consequences for Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. I can't see how Iran thinks it would come out ahead and that doesn't even begin to touch on how the rest of the world would react.

(Maybe my knack for killing threads will doom this one as it appears to have doomed the euthanasia thread... )

2008-06-29, 19:32   #6
xilman
Bamboozled!

"𒉺𒌌𒇷𒆷𒀭"
May 2003
Down not across

1103710 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by rogue No. Iran has threatened Israel. So what? The same was done between the US and USSR during the cold war and nobody fired a missile. AFAIAC it is all talk but little action. Until you have conclusive proof that Iran will fire such missiles, a pre-emptive strike will only condemn Israel and the U.S. BTW, you also must remember that Jerusalem is a holy site for Islam, not just Jews and Christians. Do you really think that Iran would destroy an Islamic holy site just to destroy Israel? Such an attack would undoubtably have terrible consequences for Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. I can't see how Iran thinks it would come out ahead and that doesn't even begin to touch on how the rest of the world would react. (Maybe my knack for killing threads will doom this one as it appears to have doomed the euthanasia thread... )
Why take out Jerusalem?

Tel Aviv would be sufficient to get yourself nuked in the counterstrike.

Paul

Last fiddled with by xilman on 2008-06-29 at 19:32 Reason: Fix tyop

2008-06-29, 22:09   #7
rogue

"Mark"
Apr 2003
Between here and the

145108 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by xilman Why take out Jerusalem? Tel Aviv would be sufficient to get yourself nuked in the counterstrike. Paul
The way I view it is that the fallout from any nuclear attack would affect more than just the city that is targeted. The point is that any attack on Israel would lead to a counter-attack, either by Israel or the US. The only point of an attack of this nature would be to kick start another world war. That war would ultimately be a war of Islam vs. non-Islam. Jihadists (and Al Qaeda) would welcome it, but most in the Muslim community would not. I would suspect that many fundamentalist Christian Americans would also welcome it.

2008-06-29, 22:16   #8
only_human

"Gang aft agley"
Sep 2002

2·1,877 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by rogue BTW, you also must remember that Jerusalem is a holy site for Islam, not just Jews and Christians. Do you really think that Iran would destroy an Islamic holy site just to destroy Israel? Such an attack would undoubtably have terrible consequences for Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. I can't see how Iran thinks it would come out ahead and that doesn't even begin to touch on how the rest of the world would react.
Applying that kind of rational logic fails because it is unrealistic about the motivation of the initiator. I was set straight on this by my older brother while growing up. He was always slightly corrupt or criminal and he once heard me opine, that no one would break a $400 car windshield just to get a pack of cigarettes on the dashboard. He explained that it is not a$400 windshield to the criminal, just a minor risk of being caught or hurt. What it is, is a pack of cigarettes available at slight inconvenience.
Now apply that to this situation. The attacker merely has to be in a position to ignore some of the total costs of the action. Or they can even be fully aware and and disturbed by the total costs but blaming another party for the need of the action. "You made us do this -- we won't forgive you for 10,000 years." Believing that the total costs are measured and rationally used for determining action is wishful thinking.

2008-06-29, 22:32   #9
tha

Dec 2002

33D16 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Prime95 To open up the debate, I'll pose the question: Do you believe Israel has the right to take out Iran's nuclear facilities?
The regime in Iran is primarily motivated to keep itself in control. That means that they must keep the people of Iran down. Ever since the revolution in 1979 Iran has been continuously in war with a successive row of nations to keep the people of Iran feeling threatened. Secondly, the Shi'ite have historically been the underdog to the Sunnite, something they would like to reverse, there are some old conflicts to settle.

The Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps took over Syria and the Lebanon. They took over the Gaza strip and most of Iraq. They threaten Egypt and Saudi-Arabia. They keep the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israeli's going, a conflict that those two people would like to and can easily settle.

The amount of terror from the regime in Iran is killing Israel and other countries in the Middle-East softly and Israel cannot sustain the current level of aggression in the long run. So, the regime in Tehran must change. Whatever it takes.

Oh, what a different world we could have lived in if Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schroeder had shown some backbone when it counted.

2008-06-30, 03:32   #10
Uncwilly
6809 > 6502

"""""""""""""""""""
Aug 2003
101×103 Posts

2·32·563 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by xilman Why take out Jerusalem? Tel Aviv would be sufficient to get yourself nuked in the counterstrike.
Reading up on the Samson Option and how close it has come to being used, would explain why it would be a bad thing to nuke any place in Israel.
Further, Israel now also possesses a nuke-missle capable sub.
"Up over whammo".

Last fiddled with by Uncwilly on 2008-06-30 at 03:32

2008-06-30, 04:05   #11

"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA

769210 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by rogue No. Iran has threatened Israel. So what? The same was done between the US and USSR during the cold war and nobody fired a missile. AFAIAC it is all talk but little action. Until you have conclusive proof that Iran will fire such missiles, a pre-emptive strike will only condemn Israel and the U.S.
So, is it correct and fair to say that you do believe Israel has the right to take out Iran's nuclear facilities, but only if it acquires conclusive proof that Iran will fire nuclear-armed missiles at it?

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