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Old 2020-12-16, 17:19   #45
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I guess you mistyped something then. I looks like you are saying if they offer you a vaccine "some point before" March you "would go and take it". So that could be tomorrow.
Yes, it could mean tomorrow. I figure the odds of that happening are extremely small.
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Old 2020-12-17, 20:01   #46
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These companies are not liable if they hurt you with the first ever of its kind vaccine using mRNA. Wow this is big time, because now it makes me wonder about quality assurance and just why they will not back their mother of all savior concoctions.



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You can’t sue Pfizer or Moderna if you have severe Covid vaccine side effects. The government likely won’t compensate you for damages either
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covi...n-lawsuit.html
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Old 2020-12-17, 20:49   #47
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Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
These companies are not liable if they hurt you with the first ever of its kind vaccine using mRNA. Wow this is big time, because now it makes me wonder about quality assurance and just why they will not back their mother of all savior concoctions.
This is not "absolute immunity". It cannot protect the vaccine makers from "willful misconduct".

Per the article, there are options for individuals to sue the vaccine makers, but they are not easy options for individuals to take.

I think this is to stop lawyers from trying to make a lot of money with frivolous lawsuits. Maybe it goes too far, as the article suggests.
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Old 2020-12-17, 21:27   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
These companies are not liable if they hurt you with the first ever of its kind vaccine using mRNA. Wow this is big time, because now it makes me wonder about quality assurance and just why they will not back their mother of all savior concoctions.
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Originally Posted by Nick View Post
What's also missing from this thread up to now is that public health is not about your health as an individual but the health of your society as a whole.
Public health is so important that the federal government of the USA has set up a system to deal with claims of harm from vaccines. This allows companies to confidently do the research make the vaccine available once approved. The system is liberal in settling claims. The whole concept of doing something for the public good is lost on people. Those of us that have been careful since the appearance of the virus see the benefit of doing things to help out the public good at the expense of our own comfort. A family member of mine has seen people come into the hospital recently and die because people could not stay apart during a recent time when families often gather.
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Old 2020-12-17, 22:06   #49
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I have no objections to established vaccines like the polio vaccine, but would not take a newly developed mRNA vaccine in the near future because it's too soon to determine whether there will be any long term side effects from it. For example, what if it increases your risk of getting cancer a few years from now?
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Old 2020-12-17, 22:33   #50
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For example, what if it increases your risk of getting cancer a few years from now?
Let's look at some numbers:
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/understanding/statistics
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In 2020, an estimated 1,806,590 new cases of cancer will be diagnosed in the
United States and 606,520 people will die from the disease.
US COVID Cases 17M, Deaths 308K (total time, ~9.5 months) and by the time we hit 12 months will be ~500,000 (here)
So, a 10% risk of cancer increase would put it at 60,652 extra cancer deaths in 2021.
And getting everyone vaccinated as soon as possible should save more lives than that in 2021.
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Old 2020-12-17, 22:45   #51
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So what we really need is a cancer vaccine.
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Old 2020-12-17, 22:48   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Carnivore View Post
For example, what if it increases your risk of getting cancer a few years from now?
Incidentally, re: cancer: it is rather the opposite.
There is a valid path forward to treating (and even curing) cancer with "cancer vaccines". I remember at Novartis around 2010 the beginning of talking about cancer vaccine program and at first it sounded like nonsense, but it made some sense if you listened to specialists (which we did have); and now 10+ years later, it is not even controversial.

The question about these particular vaccines is of course valid, and they have a whole arm of research in the clinical trials (which will continue; this is whole process, a research trial after a research trial, with carefully control-matched cohorts), but these are underpowered at phase-3 trial (as well as the fertility, pregnancy, breast-feeding aspects). All of these are very important and data will be collected, but as of now there is no statistical power yet, but there are no contraindications based on the data that is available - and pregnant women are not excluded from the vaccination process. As for all other population, the choice is with the individual; there is no mandatory vaccination.
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Old 2020-12-17, 23:24   #53
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This is a bit cumbersome to locate - but this is a completely open access data; I will simply attach it here for ease of access. Notable important tables: Table 2 (page 18), Table 3 (page 19), Table 4 (page 20), and next tables are informative. Figure 2 is remarkable (see day 14 after 1st doze and onward).

Similar technical report for ModeRNA (on agenda for tomorrow's proceedings (which are, btw, also livestreamed).
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Old 2020-12-17, 23:32   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
This is a bit cumbersome to locate - but this is a completely open access data; I will simply attach it here for ease of access.
Thanks:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
So 4 in 30,000 had this side affect. You numbers guys how many could it be if say since we have a supply of 250 million shots on hand and say we use it all, how many could get bells palsy? What figure would you average?

My figures are about 33,333 people would get Bells Palsy
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Originally Posted by Uncwilly View Post
So that many cases is the same as background. roughly.
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Safety data from approximately 38,000 participants ≥16 years of age randomized 1:1 to vaccine or placebo with a median of 2 months of follow up after the second dose suggest a favorable safety profile, with no specific safety concerns identified that would preclude issuance of an EUA. Available safety data from all participants enrolled through the November 14, 2020 data cut-off (N=43,252, which includes late enrollment of additional adolescent and adult participants), was consistent with the safety profile for the approximately 38,000 participants with median follow-up of 2 months and also did not raise specific safety concerns. The most common solicited adverse reactions were injection site reactions (84.1%), fatigue (62.9%), headache (55.1%), muscle pain (38.3%), chills (31.9%), joint pain (23.6%), fever (14.2%); severe adverse reactions occurred in 0.0% to 4.6% of participants, were more frequent after Dose 2 than after Dose 1, and were generally less frequent in participants ≥55 years of age (≤2.8%) as compared to younger participants (≤4.6%). The frequency of serious adverse events was low (<0.5%), without meaningful imbalances between study arms. Among non-serious unsolicited adverse events, there was a numerical imbalance of four cases of Bell’s palsy in the vaccine group compared with no cases in the placebo group, though the four cases in the vaccine group do not represent a frequency above that expected in the general population. Otherwise, there were no notable patterns or numerical imbalances between treatment groups for specific categories of non-serious adverse events (including other neurologic, neuro-inflammatory, and thrombotic events) that would suggest a causal relationship to BNT162b2 vaccine. With the exception of more frequent, generally mild to moderate reactogenicity in participants <55 years of age, the safety profile of BNT162b2 was generally similar across age groups, genders, ethnic and racial groups, participants with or without medical comorbidities, and participants with or without evidence of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection at enrollment.
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Old 2020-12-18, 00:54   #55
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So what we really need is a cancer vaccine.
Crowdfunded 3D printed cancer chomping blockchain powered eco-friendly nanobots, someone should probably get on that.
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