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Old 2020-12-15, 06:44   #12
ONeil
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
Which do you fear the most, the vaccine, or the virus?

If you strongly fear them both then enjoy your life locked away in seclusion for the rest of your life.
retina you are an idiot you should be more careful with your words. If you have never been isolated or in seclution count yourself lucky. I hope that never happens to you. But you should not throw around suffering statements like that unless your karma is prepared to handle it yourself.
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Old 2020-12-15, 06:53   #13
ONeil
 
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mRNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfYf_rPWUdY


Last fiddled with by retina on 2020-12-15 at 07:03 Reason: Fix links
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Old 2020-12-15, 07:40   #14
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OMG!
Quote:
Bill and Melinda Gates give another $70 million to COVID-19 vaccine development
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...vid-19-vaccine
I'M NOT TAKING THE VACCINE GATES A MAJOR DONOR FOR PFIZER SAID THIS!
check at 2:33


Last fiddled with by ONeil on 2020-12-15 at 08:02
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Old 2020-12-15, 07:54   #15
Batalov
 
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Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
Hmmm a very bad flu that can kill I have a bad flu
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
retina you are an idiot you should be more careful with your words
Talking out of both sides of the mouth this one is. (answering to a single message in two opposite ways.)

Personally for me, I'll take any vaccine that has been scientifically tested. Which is ... either one of the three! (but not the Sputnik. Remind me, why did I leave USSR? Ah, that's why. Memory is the 2nd thing that goes with age.)

I am getting Pfizer's, probably as early as this week. Owning a cow and not drinking the milk seems silly. Why the hell did I chose a work at the hospital? Incidentally, our hospital is the four-county-designated storage space for San Diego++ vicinity. We've got enough -80 freezers and plenty of nurses.
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Old 2020-12-15, 08:05   #16
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Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
That was a very intense and convoluted answer
Please let me know what parts you found convoluted and I'll see if I can simplify them further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
So you say all anti-vaxxers are idiots eh.
Pretty much, yes. There are plenty of wise people who are cautious about vaccines, but not a single one who calls him/herself an anti-vaxxer.

But I'd be happy to have my mind changed! Do you know of an intelligent anti-vaxxer whose arguments are cogent and based in science and not cherry-picking or other fallacies?

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Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
Well some people in the past if they could could cry out from their graves would say you are dead wrong no pun intended. Yet many have led productive lives saved from the ill effects of polio.
How many deaths are you talking about? The Cutter incident caused 10 deaths (5 direct, 5 indirect). The 1976 flu vaccine may have caused around 20 deaths from GBS... we don't have a single confirmed case. Over 20 years vaccines saved 732,000 lives (counting only children in the US; worldwide, tens of millions).

This is not even getting into the lives that have been merely improved by vaccines -- people who have not been blinded or deafened or paralyzed by infection. (If you're young enough to think it strange that an infection would do that, thank vaccines, not your lucky stars.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
What get me is the rush with a new mRNA vaccine the first of its kind and I almost feel persecuted for asking questions of its safety?
What's the rush? Seriously? We're 3 days away from having three times the numbers of Americans dead as from Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan combined. We're going to hit World War II before Biden takes office.

But maybe I'm missing something here. We're talking about an RNA virus, so if you're squeamish about mRNA then presumably an attenuated vaccine, a recombinant vaccine, or a DNA vaccine would be even more problematic for you. Are you just hoping for a subunit vaccine, or what? Because those generally take lots of doses to become effective, and it's usually tricky to get a good dosing schedule, and often you need to find a good adjuvant to pair with it, and all of these mean serious delays in getting the vaccine out (or even longer delays if you skip the adjuvant).* Going whole-hog means you can skip the adjuvant entirely (usually... and it looks like that's what they're doing here) which is great -- you're getting a much more natural immune response that way, no need to muck around. (Not that I'm opposed to mucking, but not when there's a crisis on!)

But by all means, ask questions about safety. All vaccines intended for the general public need close scrutiny. But so far I haven't really heard anything from you, just vague uneasiness. If you have real concerns, please voice them! Why are you concerned with mRNA vaccines? Why do you (seem to) think it would be safer to let the pandemic rage vs. vaccinate with one of the leading (Pfizer/Moderna/Novavax/J&J/AstraZeneca) vaccines?

* Not that I hate subunit vaccines... they have their place... but lots of downsides here. One upside: very few vaccine reactions, unless you use adjuvants (esp. dermally -- better to go IM or its itchy).
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Old 2020-12-15, 08:10   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRGreathouse View Post
Please let me know what parts you found convoluted and I'll see if I can simplify them further.



Pretty much, yes. There are plenty of wise people who are cautious about vaccines, but not a single one who calls him/herself an anti-vaxxer.

But I'd be happy to have my mind changed! Do you know of an intelligent anti-vaxxer whose arguments are cogent and based in science and not cherry-picking or other fallacies?



How many deaths are you talking about? The Cutter incident caused 10 deaths (5 direct, 5 indirect). The 1976 flu vaccine may have caused around 20 deaths from GBS... we don't have a single confirmed case. Over 20 years vaccines saved 732,000 lives (counting only children in the US; worldwide, tens of millions).

This is not even getting into the lives that have been merely improved by vaccines -- people who have not been blinded or deafened or paralyzed by infection. (If you're young enough to think it strange that an infection would do that, thank vaccines, not your lucky stars.)



What's the rush? Seriously? We're 3 days away from having three times the numbers of Americans dead as from Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan combined. We're going to hit World War II before Biden takes office.

But maybe I'm missing something here. We're talking about an RNA virus, so if you're squeamish about mRNA then presumably an attenuated vaccine, a recombinant vaccine, or a DNA vaccine would be even more problematic for you. Are you just hoping for a subunit vaccine, or what? Because those generally take lots of doses to become effective, and it's usually tricky to get a good dosing schedule, and often you need to find a good adjuvant to pair with it, and all of these mean serious delays in getting the vaccine out (or even longer delays if you skip the adjuvant).* Going whole-hog means you can skip the adjuvant entirely (usually... and it looks like that's what they're doing here) which is great -- you're getting a much more natural immune response that way, no need to muck around. (Not that I'm opposed to mucking, but not when there's a crisis on!)

But by all means, ask questions about safety. All vaccines intended for the general public need close scrutiny. But so far I haven't really heard anything from you, just vague uneasiness. If you have real concerns, please voice them! Why are you concerned with mRNA vaccines? Why do you (seem to) think it would be safer to let the pandemic rage vs. vaccinate with one of the leading (Pfizer/Moderna/Novavax/J&J/AstraZeneca) vaccines?

* Not that I hate subunit vaccines... they have their place... but lots of downsides here. One upside: very few vaccine reactions, unless you use adjuvants (esp. dermally -- better to go IM or its itchy).
Sorry GreatHouse you can have your New World Order Juice Now Kiss Bill
Quote:
Bill and Melinda Gates give another $70 million to COVID-19 vaccine development
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...vid-19-vaccine

Last fiddled with by ONeil on 2020-12-15 at 08:15
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Old 2020-12-15, 08:20   #18
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Anti-vaxxer and conspiracy... that's not a good cocktail here.

Last fiddled with by firejuggler on 2020-12-15 at 08:26
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Old 2020-12-15, 08:31   #19
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Originally Posted by firejuggler View Post
Anti-vaxxer and conspiracy... that's not a good cocktail here.

Last fiddled with by ONeil on 2020-12-15 at 08:36
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Old 2020-12-15, 10:40   #20
M344587487
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
Are you afraid of the Covid Vaccine be honest?
No. I wouldn't have been the first to take it but I will be the millionth if you understand my meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
What are your thoughts on the Anti-vaxxers and all the conspiracies regarding Bill Gates and vaccines?
If this particular mass delusion wasn't so damaging to society it would be hilarious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ONeil View Post
What get me is the rush with a new mRNA vaccine the first of its kind and I almost feel persecuted for asking questions of its safety?
You haven't just started a discussion about the safety of a vaccine, you've also asked people's opinion about anti-vaxxers. As you identify as an anti-vaxxer all that achieves is feeding your persecution complex, misguided is most likely the kindest thing anyone not in an anti-vaxxer bubble is likely to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firejuggler View Post
Anti-vaxxer and conspiracy... that's not a good cocktail here.
The two go hand in hand. I have a relative who dabbles in conspiracy theories recreationally, I like to think of it as a harmless outlet for an active imagination which it mostly is, but I still try to keep them grounded if they start swimming away from the shallow end. They have concerns about the vaccine as you might expect, boiling down to a distrust of the government or more accurately the way Covid has played out in the media and the speed at which a vaccine has been developed. They're not anti-vaxxers, but because they have concerns they cite "evidence" that confirms their concerns, it's not entirely unlike a hypochondriac thinking that everything they read is happening to them in some way. Thankfully they have the support network necessary to quickly dispel the nonsense, but those that don't get more and more cranky. The modern problem is that cranks can now easily organise online and exponentially exacerbate their crankiness.
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Old 2020-12-15, 10:52   #21
xilman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M344587487 View Post
I have a relative who dabbles in conspiracy theories recreationally,
What I want to know is: if conspiracy theories are complete BS, why does the gummint spend so much time, money and effort trying to debunk them? What are they hiding from us?
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Old 2020-12-15, 11:01   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xilman View Post
What I want to know is: if conspiracy theories are complete BS, why does the gummint spend so much time, money and effort trying to debunk them? What are they hiding from us?

Because, as educated people, they think they can teach disbeliever. And, as good educator, if one method doesn't work, they try again, differently.
That cost time , effort and money.

Last fiddled with by firejuggler on 2020-12-15 at 11:02
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