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2013-01-29, 03:41   #23
Jorge

Jan 2013

32 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Xyzzy SNIP FWIW, any error or warning is unacceptable to us, so we would not rest until the issue was resolved. And we would explore every possible angle to simplify the challenge.
My goal is to find an answer, but introducing an O/S that I won't be using isn't the best means to see if the issue exists under Windoze. I will continue until I do find the answer as I haven't had a PC that wouldn't Prime for 24 hours straight in the 20 years I have been building AMD and Intel powered PCs professionally.

Last fiddled with by Jorge on 2013-01-29 at 03:53

 2013-01-29, 03:56 #24 Xyzzy     "Mike" Aug 2002 8,053 Posts Two other thoughts: 1 - Remove all items from the computer that are not necessary. Disable all on-board devices. All you need is video output of some sort. Start simple, hopefully pass the test and then add things in one by one. If you can get by with one stick of memory, run that. Simplify. 2 - Also, we have built countless computers. We have used nearly every manufacturer out there. We have spent thousands of hours diagnosing systems with weird problems. But then, we started using only well-documented Intel processors on thoroughly-tested Asus motherboards, all at stock speeds. (We also use Asus video cards.) Twenty or thirty years ago our time was not worth much, but now it is worth much more to us, because it is a finite resource, and we are running out of it. So we use top tier products coupled with our experience and our stuff just works. We are not saying an Asrock motherboard with an AMD processor will not work, but in our expert opinion, it is less likely to work easily. Here is one of our recent build threads: http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=16871 FWIW, we built the Opteron system that GIMPS uses. It was a nightmare to build compared to our most recent plug and play adventure. Building computers today is almost boring because quality, well documented and tested components just seem to work. But, we could be full of it, so YMMV.
 2013-01-29, 03:58 #25 LaurV Romulan Interpreter     Jun 2011 Thailand 222458 Posts [thinking]Clearly AMD troll, as I assumed. He has no real problem with his system, just wanna prove AMD is better... This is how you catch them...[/thinking] Again, in case you did not read the later edit of my previous post: From Prime95 (the program) stress.txt file, last paragraph, last FAQ: Code: Q) A forum member said "Don't bother with prime95, it always pukes on me, and my system is stable!. What do you make of that?" or "We had a server at work that ran for 2 MONTHS straight, without a reboot I installed Prime95 on it and ran it - a couple minutes later I get an error. You are going to tell me that the server wasn't stable?" A) These users obviously do not subscribe to the 100% rock solid school of thought. THEIR MACHINES DO HAVE HARDWARE PROBLEMS. But since they are not presently running any programs that reveal the hardware problem, the machines are quite stable. As long as these machines never run a program that uncovers the hardware problem, then the machines will continue to be stable. Related to the part with "AMD-the processor which never has bugs", try goggling dragonfly and Matt Dillon as a starting point. Here is a good one. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-01-29 at 04:13
2013-01-29, 04:52   #26
Prime95
P90 years forever!

Aug 2002
Yeehaw, FL

22·17·109 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jorge The only reason I replied to Prime95's AMD comment was because his perception is completely inaccurate..., unlike the Intel shipments of defective products, which are documented. Concluding that the issue I am seeing is likely a result of AMD"s perceived QC issues would be wrong as there is no basis for this belief.
To clarify, I don't believe AMD products are defective as with the infamous Intel FDIV bug. I suspect there was a problem in the past, hopefully fixed, dealing with "binning". That is, selling a product rated to run at x GHz, but under some stress test scenarios it can't quite get to x GHz. Intel had this problem once, selling a 1.3GHz Pentium 3, which it later had to pull from the market. The only reason I mentioned all this is to shoot down the "I'm running at stock speed therefore there must be a software problem" argument.

The most common stress test failure I see today is memory sold as safe at X-Y-Z CAS/RAS/whatever-the-other-latency-setting-is. Unfortunately, under stress they are not completely stable at the X-Y-Z settings. This is due to either an inadequate binning process, or the pressures in the ultra-competitive memory market.

Now, let's get back on track. I like Xyzzy's idea of running a stress test in safe mode.

2013-01-29, 14:19   #27
science_man_88

"Forget I exist"
Jul 2009
Dumbassville

26×131 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jorge Since AMD hasn't shipped any defective products that I am aware of, there is no reason for them to have a recall.
and opinion statement, and though I suck at computers easy to find things to counter it with:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opteron#Opteron_recall AMD has recalled some E4 stepping-revision single-core Opteron processors, including x52 (2.6 GHz) and x54 (2.8 GHz) models which use DDR memory. The following table describes affected processors, as they are listed in AMD Opteron x52 and x54 Production Notice.

Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2013-01-29 at 14:20

2013-01-29, 18:17   #29
rajula

"Tapio Rajala"
Feb 2010
Finland

32·5·7 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jorge My goal is to find an answer, but introducing an O/S that I won't be using isn't the best means to see if the issue exists under Windoze.
Clearly the issue exists under Windows, but wouldn't it be nice to know how related it is to having Windows as the OS?

In that regard I find xyzzy's suggestion to run P95 on Linux from a liveCD the best suggestion so far. This would not interfere with your current install and it is a (comparably) fast way of giving more hints about the role of the OS. But, it would take you a few minutes to download and write the image and boot up. Plus of course the time that it takes to run the stress test again.

As the second option I would underclock the CPU and memory and run the stress test. This should give strong hints on the reliability of the hardware.

As a side note, I have roughly 50/50 balance in AMD and intel CPUs that I am using and have used in the past. Although I find them all reliable I would never be so naive as to think that they could not have any hardware faults. In fact, that would be my first suspicion if there were an error/warning with P95.

2013-01-29, 20:05   #30
science_man_88

"Forget I exist"
Jul 2009
Dumbassville

838410 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jorge Futhermore DO NOT POST ANY CRAP ABOUT AMD vs. INTEL IN THIS THREAD as it is OFF-TOPIC and INAPPROPRIATE!
really unless you do test to prove it's the software and not hardware ( in other words either exchanging hardware/disabling software ) there can be no conclusion drawn that is not opinion of one thing or another. you claim it has to be the software but it may just be that prime95 software detects this specific instance of hardware mishaps more often,

 2013-01-30, 19:43 #31 Prime95 P90 years forever!     Aug 2002 Yeehaw, FL 11100111101002 Posts I just terminated the 16 thread, small FFT, Bulldozer torture test after 61 hours. No errors, no warnings.
2013-01-31, 06:13   #32
bcp19

Oct 2011

7×97 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jorge In 20 years of building many AMD (and a few Intel), PC's, I have never had an AMD powered PC that wouldn't run P95 for 24 hours without issue (UNTIL THIS ONE--->>>). This PC with the FX processor and P95, V27.7 is the first time I have ever experienced an issue with my PC builds and P95 - yet this system runs bulletproof under OCCT.
First, let me state I could care less about AMD vs Intel, but you sound like the fanboi you accuse others of being. There has NEVER been an AMD vs Intel flame war on this forum since I joined, until now, and who is the person up in arms and calling names?

To me, your statement above sums it all up. You talk about LaurV being condecending and conceited, but maybe you should look in the mirror since your statement comes across like you are saying "Since *I* have built X computers with no problems, this *CANNOT* be a hardware problem, the software *MUST* be bad".

Having spent 20 years as an electronic technician in the Navy (as well as over 35 years building computers), I can say with certainty that you cannot assume that because the parts are new that they are fault-free. Unless you can reproduce this same set of errors on several similar machines, I fail to see how you can blame the software. Simple logic should make this clear. If 100 computers run the program fault-free and 1 fails (even after several hours) then logic dictates there is a problem with the 1.

Please also remember this, while you may feel you deserve respect because of your past and experience (inferred from your posts), you are new here and the lack of respect you have shown others is most likely the reason you are not shown the respect you feel you deserve.

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