mersenneforum.org  

Go Back   mersenneforum.org > Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search > Hardware

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2019-07-09, 02:24   #23
nomead
 
nomead's Avatar
 
"Sam Laur"
Dec 2018
Turku, Finland

2×3×5×11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
IME the branding makes no real difference. People who have had WD fail on them will then swear to never use them again, and other people who have had Hitachi fail on them will then swear to never use them again, and other people who have had <brand> fail on them will then swear to never use them again, ... etc. etc. etc.

It is just a giant merry-go-round. They all fail eventually. Don't worry about the brand, just buy what you need and plan for failures accordingly.
Pretty much correct. More important than the brand is the specific model number, and even there, when you find out that one model is worse than the others, the damage is already done, and production has moved on to other models.

Backblaze regularly releases some nice statistics about drives failing in their storage pods, and the sample size is large enough so there is some statistical significance. But even they can't catch bad apples until after the fact, late enough that it usually can't affect further purchasing decisions anymore. Like the notorious case of those Seagate 3TB drives failing really fast. Most of them were purchased during 2012; most of them failed during 2013, with a further huge spike still in Q1 2014.
nomead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-09, 04:45   #24
NookieN
 
NookieN's Avatar
 
Aug 2002

5810 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
IME the branding makes no real difference. People who have had WD fail on them will then swear to never use them again, and other people who have had Hitachi fail on them will then swear to never use them again, and other people who have had <brand> fail on them will then swear to never use them again, ... etc. etc. etc.
I had a few Seagate Cheetah 10Ks fail 20 years ago just because I had a loose hot wire flopping around in my case that might periodically short on them. The nerve of those guys selling me drives than couldn't even handle an extra 12V!
NookieN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-09, 20:22   #25
aurashift
 
Jan 2015

11·23 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madpoo View Post
^^ This ^^

Whether you use SSD or spinning disks depends a lot on your specific needs.

I've had both types fail, recently, at about the same rate. This is on a video recording system, so they get a LOT of write activity.

I keep the most recent recordings on RAID arrays of SSD, so the write performance is up there, and it gives good playback speeds when needed, without affecting all of the other cameras still writing to disk.

For long term archiving, capacity is more important than speed, so a few spinning disks in a RAID array give me the space, and still performs well when doing playback of something older, when I might be rapidly zipping through a day's worth of recording from some camera or another.

Ultimately all the churn will cause failures. I think in my case, my SSD failures to date were due to me using SSD drives that were pulled from machines heading to the great recycle bin in the sky, so who knows how many write cycles they'd already logged (I didn't check). I also try now to move things to the long term archives when there's still about 25% free space on the SSD drives, so I'm keeping a good amount of space available for wear leveling.

The failure of the spinning disks was a mystery to me... they were purchased new, WD purple which is supposed to be good for just this type of thing, but for whatever reason one drive or another fails. I switched to Seagate and we'll see if they hold out any longer.

There may be other best practices to this I'm not aware of, but IMHO its better to leave space unpartitioned instead of leaving space free inside your filesystem. Especially if you're encrypting. That's how all the articles I've read on over-provisioning or whatever its called says how to do it. Depending on the size of the SSD, they say to leave 5-10% of the space unallocated.
aurashift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-09, 21:17   #26
lavalamp
 
lavalamp's Avatar
 
Oct 2007
Manchester, UK

22×5×67 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aurashift View Post
There may be other best practices to this I'm not aware of, but IMHO its better to leave space unpartitioned instead of leaving space free inside your filesystem. Especially if you're encrypting. That's how all the articles I've read on over-provisioning or whatever its called says how to do it. Depending on the size of the SSD, they say to leave 5-10% of the space unallocated.
Interesting, like a poor-mans over provisioning and letting the wear levelling take care of it. I think I might give this a try with my next SSD.

I try to buy MLC where I can, but sadly I don't know of any decent capacity M.2 drives that still use it (other than what Samsung CALL MLC when they really mean TLC).
lavalamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-10, 01:07   #27
CRGreathouse
 
CRGreathouse's Avatar
 
Aug 2006

22·1,493 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavalamp View Post
(other than what Samsung CALL MLC when they really mean TLC)
Sounds interesting, tell us more!
CRGreathouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-10, 02:34   #28
lavalamp
 
lavalamp's Avatar
 
Oct 2007
Manchester, UK

53C16 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRGreathouse View Post
Sounds interesting, tell us more!
NAND flash started off with 1 bit per cell, called Single Level Cell or SLC, this is still used as a drive cache before writing data to the final storage location. SLC has the highest write endurance.

Multi-Level Cell or MLC flash development came along next with 2 bits / cell, essentially double the capacity but with a lower write endurance.

Triple-Level Cell or TLC flash has 3 bits per cell, however Samsung insist on calling this MLC as well, since hey, it's still multi right? Cynically I think this is to trick consumers into paying more.

Quad-Level Cell or QLC is becoming more common now, and makes me throw up in my mouth a little. If you ever buy a QLC SSD without a write cache (either SLC or DRAM), expect to blow through the write allocations of these drives in less than a year, at which point the warranty is considered expired. Typically this is tracked in the SMART data for the drive, but you may need a manufacturers proprietary software to read it.

Samsung (and other manufacturers) have started stacking NAND now, so VNAND and 3D VNAND are also terms used. As far as I know these are both TLC (but when pressed Samsung refer to these as as "3-bit MLC", but dropping "3-bit" in most of their marketing bunk).

Typically if you ever see an endurance rating for an SSD given in TBW (Terabytes Written), you can divide by the capacity of the drive to see an endurance rating per cell. They typically assume that all cells are written to perfectly evenly (which of course is never the case). As I mentioned earlier, if the drive does not have a drive cache, you can blast through your write allocations much faster due to write amplification.

I've uploaded a screenshot of a fairly new and lightly used drive showing the wear stats in the SMART data.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	drive_stats.png
Views:	54
Size:	64.6 KB
ID:	20747  

Last fiddled with by lavalamp on 2019-07-10 at 02:41
lavalamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-10, 07:14   #29
lavalamp
 
lavalamp's Avatar
 
Oct 2007
Manchester, UK

22×5×67 Posts
Default

Semi-related, this seems like a crazy good deal right now:

https://www.newegg.com/seagate-oem-n...2U3-0012-00008

https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-XF123.../dp/B01LYJMRC6

$230 on Newegg, $240 on Amazon.com. 1.92TB enterprise grade eMLC flash drive, I'm so tempted.
lavalamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-10, 21:35   #30
Madpoo
Serpentine Vermin Jar
 
Madpoo's Avatar
 
Jul 2014

2×5×7×47 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
IME the branding makes no real difference. People who have had WD fail on them will then swear to never use them again, and other people who have had Hitachi fail on them will then swear to never use them again, and other people who have had <brand> fail on them will then swear to never use them again, ... etc. etc. etc.

It is just a giant merry-go-round. They all fail eventually. Don't worry about the brand, just buy what you need and plan for failures accordingly.
Maybe. I was just disappointed that out of a batch of 4 WD purple drives purchased at the same time, two of them failed within about 2 years.

I know what you mean though... different brands have different reliability at different times.
Madpoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-10, 23:44   #31
Batalov
 
Batalov's Avatar
 
"Serge"
Mar 2008
Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2

22·32·7·37 Posts
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by josephkhan View Post
Let me start off with a little story:

I have a seagate external 5 TB drive I bought for a steal from costco a while back. It stopped responding in both Linux and Windows. Rather than dealing with the warranty process, I decided to shuck it and install it in my desktop (it's the only spinning disk in my system, everything else is solid state).

It worked. I could see the drive.....
MOD note:

This whole post was a social mimicry, to get past registration and start posting porn links. Now that s/he posted a few of those - s/he is banned.

Here is the original post - https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussi...come-obsolete/
Batalov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-11, 02:16   #32
Madpoo
Serpentine Vermin Jar
 
Madpoo's Avatar
 
Jul 2014

2·5·7·47 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
MOD note:

This whole post was a social mimicry, to get past registration and start posting porn links. Now that s/he posted a few of those - s/he is banned.

Here is the original post - https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussi...come-obsolete/
What a turkey.
Madpoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019-07-12, 18:47   #33
ewmayer
2ω=0
 
ewmayer's Avatar
 
Sep 2002
Rep├║blica de California

2·7·829 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batalov View Post
MOD note:

This whole post was a social mimicry, to get past registration and start posting porn links. Now that s/he posted a few of those - s/he is banned.

Here is the original post - https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussi...come-obsolete/
That doesn't make the ensuing non-p0rn-link-riddled discussion uninteresting, though.
ewmayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When do you guys think solid state(or something else) will overtake hard drives for bulk storage? jasong jasong 10 2016-02-27 17:08
Anyone experience problems with USB hard drives? Jeff Gilchrist Hardware 10 2011-05-18 13:16
Any thoughts on large hard drives... petrw1 Hardware 21 2010-04-27 21:33
Forecasting when flash memory will do the same task as hard drives. jasong Science & Technology 8 2006-03-31 21:08
Assigned [or cleared] exponents that are already obsolete GP2 Data 21 2003-10-21 03:58

All times are UTC. The time now is 10:58.

Thu Feb 25 10:58:29 UTC 2021 up 84 days, 7:09, 0 users, load averages: 1.03, 1.32, 1.37

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum has received and complied with 0 (zero) government requests for information.

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
A copy of the license is included in the FAQ.