20181124, 03:47  #1 
"Sam"
Nov 2016
517_{8} Posts 
Trying to solve discriminant of a cubic polynomial by product method
If P(x) = x^2 + a*x + b is a monic quadratic polynomial with b = c*d and the discriminant D = a^24*b, then Q(x) = c*x^2 + a*x + d is the corresponding polynomial to P(x) with the same discriminant as P(x) and defining the same number field as P(x). What is the case with cubic polynomials?
Suppose that P(x) = x^3 + a*x^2 + b*x + c and c = f*g. D = 4*a^3*c + a^2*b^2 + 18*a*b*c  4*b^3  27*c^2 is the discriminant of P(x). The problem is to find the corresponding polynomial Q(x) = f*x^3 + d*x^2 + e*x + g such that D_{2} = D (where D_{2} is the discriminant of Q(x)) and the fields defined by P(x) and Q(x) are isomorphic. Thus, this leads to finding a solution [d, e] for the equations: (D_{2}=4*d^3*g + e^2*d^2 + 18*e*d*f*g  27*f^2*g^2  4*e^3*f, is also the discriminant of any general cubic polynomial) 4*d^3*g + e^2*d^2 + 18*e*d*f*g  27*f^2*g^2  4*e^3*f = 4*a^3*c + a^2*b^2 + 18*a*b*c  4*b^3  27*c^2 (implies that D_{2}=D) c = f*g Using some basic algebra (substitution) we find that: 4*d^3*g + e^2*d^2 + 18*e*d*f*g  27*f^2*g^2  4*e^3*f = 4*a^3*c + a^2*b^2 + 18*a*b*c  4*b^3  27*c^2 4*d^3*g + e^2*d^2 + 18*e*d*f*g  27*f^2*g^2  4*e^3*f = 4*a^3*f*g + a^2*b^2 + 18*a*b*f*g  4*b^3  27*f^2*g^2 4*d^3*g + e^2*d^2 + 18*e*d*f*g  4*e^3*f = 4*a^3*f*g + a^2*b^2 + 18*a*b*f*g  4*b^3 4*d^3*g + e^2*d^2 + 18*e*d*f*g  4*e^3*f = 4*a^3*f*g + a^2*b^2 + 18*a*b*f*g  4*b^3 Since we are only solving for d and e, the right hand side of this equation is a constant, while the left had side remains a two variable cubic expression, thus getting d and e in terms of a, b, f, and g seems extremely difficult. Any help or ideas? Thanks 
20181124, 09:51  #2  
"Forget I exist"
Jul 2009
Dartmouth NS
3×53^{2} Posts 
Quote:
Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 20181124 at 09:52 

20181124, 16:35  #3 
"Serge"
Mar 2008
Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2
10,093 Posts 
Rewriting one cubic equation into another is not a big help to find a solution.
If you cannot solve x^3  3*x 1 = 0 properly, then you cannot solve it with your coefficient juggling. 
20181124, 17:39  #4  
"Sam"
Nov 2016
5·67 Posts 
Quote:
x = l/l_{2} where l = (2  2*sqrt(3) + 2^(1/3) (1 + sqrt(3))^(5/3)) l_{2} = (2*2^(2/3)*(1 + sqrt(3))^(1/3)) ^^^ I had to look that one up using Wolfram Alpha 

20181124, 17:47  #5 
"Serge"
Mar 2008
Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2
10,093 Posts 
Forget Wolfram Alpha. Take your own post #1 and demonstrate that it does any good for this easy equation (a=1, b=0, ...etc).

20181127, 16:37  #6 
Feb 2017
Nowhere
13×487 Posts 
There's another issue. Although all cubic fields are "isomorphic" as far as field operations are concerned, there can be distinct cubic fields having defining polynomials in Z[x] with the same field discriminant D and same Galois group. In some cases, it is possible to rewrite polynomials to get defining polynomials with the same polynomial discriminant d, sometimes not. Luckily, with cubic fields, the issue of "signature" (number of real roots, and of pairs of complexconjugate roots) does not further complicate matters. Evenly many pairs of complexconjugate roots means a positive discriminant, oddly many pairs a negative discriminant. With a cubic in Z[x], the only possibilities are 3 real roots and no (evenly many) pairs of complexconjugate roots (positive discriminant), or 1 real root and one pair (oddly many) of complexconjugate roots (negative discriminant). With degree 4, either 4 real roots and no complexconjugate pairs, or no real roots and two pairs of complexconjugate roots mean a positive discriminant, while two real roots and one pair of complexconjugate roots means a negative discriminant. Here are examples (culled from tables) of cubic discriminants of "multiplicity" greater than 1, in each possible case.
G = A3, D = 3969 (different d's, though) x^3  21*x  28 x^3  21*x  35 (In this case, the field discriminants are the same, but good luck rewriting defining polynomials to get equal polynomial discriminants. Although there are oodles of examples of multiple cubic fields with the same field discriminant and G = A3, I was too lazy to devote serious effort to finding examples where I could match up polynomial discriminants in this case.) G=S3, D = 972, d = 3888 x^3 + 12*x^2 + 12*x + 4 x^3  12 G = S3, D = d = 1228 x^3  x^2 + x  7 x^3  x^2 + 7*x  1 x^3 + 4*x  6 G = S3, D = d = 22356 x^3 + 3*x^2  15*x  23 x^3 + 3*x^2  51*x  203 x^3 + 3*x^2  33*x  113 
20181128, 13:16  #7  
Feb 2017
Nowhere
13·487 Posts 
Quote:
Any two cubic field extensions are isomorphic as Qvector spaces  not as fields! If you define the extensions via polynomial modulo arithmetic, and define a correspondence by equating the quadratic remainders, addition works just fine, and multiplication by rational numbers works just fine. But when you multiply by field elements that aren't in Q, the party's over... The part about different cubic fields having the same (field) discriminant is of course quite correct, as shown by example. You can get field isomorphism via algebraic conjugacy. Sometimes, with a defining polynomial f, algebraic conjugates of Mod(x, f) can be expressed as Mod(r(x), f) where r(x) is a polynomial (other than the identity polynomial x) of degree less than that of f. Sometimes not. You can also "rewrite" a defining polynomial using a "Tschirnhausen transformation." Pari's function poltschirnhaus() applies a "random" Tschirnhausen transformation. If you pick one yourself  and for a cubic polynomial f, this would look like t = Mod(a + b*x + c*x^2, f) with a, b, c rational, you can get the new polynomial by applying charpoly(t). Of course if b and c are 0, this will not be irreducible ;) 

Thread Tools  
Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
Families of cyclic cubic fields... and more  carpetpool  carpetpool  2  20200412 01:04 
the multiplicativ structur of the discriminant for quadratic polynomials  bhelmes  Computer Science & Computational Number Theory  3  20170527 01:33 
Polynomial Discriminant is n^k for an n1 degree polynomial  carpetpool  Miscellaneous Math  14  20170218 19:46 
Efficient computation of cubic residue  axn  Computer Science & Computational Number Theory  2  20150104 03:49 
Intersection with cubic  kuratkull  Miscellaneous Math  7  20080124 15:28 