About Sweety439's ban and the removal of Windows Primo links...

Stargate38 · 2022-08-14, 16:39

Please don't ban me for saying this, but I seriously disagree with how a recent event has been handled:

Whoever banned Sweety439 should unban them immediately! Posting a Windows Primo link is no reason for a ban, especially when there aren't any existing download links for it! Also, people should be allowed/able to download Windows Primo, even if Marcel discontinued it. Hopefully a permanent mirror of it will be available someday. I hate it that all links to said software are being removed/taken down! Seriously, people have a right to use it, regardless of what Marcel said, even though it's heavily outdated to the point of only being useful for historical purposes (i.e. comparing to see how slow it is compared to the current version). There's no way of running Linux Primo (which is 64-bit) on 32-bit hardware. Not all people can afford to upgrade to 64-bit hardware. So please make a permanently working link for Windows Primo!

I believe that all discontinued software should be archived permanently, regardless of the license. Think of all the software companies that are discontinuing programs, without even asking customers of said companies whether they should do so or not (I'm looking at Microsoft, Google, etc.), and upsetting them. Along these lines, I still haven't found a place to download the Microsoft Tag API. I remember when I first asked about that, you changed the thread title to something completely irrelevant, and made it look like I was more demanding than I actually was. I have the same opinion towards Marcel for discontinuing Windows Primo (he really upset me when he did that), and I'm hoping that he'll change his mind someday and bring it back. Not sure what it would take for that to happen, though. I've kept a copy of it on my external HDD in the hopes that you (or Marcel) would let me upload it someday to keep it from going extinct.

EDIT: I've sent an e-mail to Marcel in the hopes that he'll bring back Windows Primo and open-source it someday, as well as bringing back the NX, ECB, and CPG packages that he discontinued. Also, I'm going to stop using Primo altogether until you unban Sweety439 and/or restore the Windows Primo link that they posted.

Batalov · 2022-08-14, 17:25

In short, you declare once again (and done plenty before) that you have no understanding of the words "intellectual property", "copyright", "license" *, "legal action" and so on.

Please spell out below that your intention is to get this forum shut down by court. That would suit you fine?

If a friend puts some stolen property in your house (without you knowing it) and then innocently tells you that he will get it out soon, just needs a bit of time to keep it somewhere and why not your house. Wouldn't you throw him and his stolen stuff out of your house and tell him that you won't be seeing him any time soon?

Re-read this.
____

* ok, for those who cannot read. For those who confuse terms "free of charge" and "free of obligations".
Pay attention to this, rather common, phrase: "the Author hereby grants the User a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to install and to use the Software." This is very common. thousands of sites use it. It means: "You can download it here. You cannot re-share it with other people. They can download it here, too."

charybdis · 2022-08-14, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stargate38

EDIT: I've sent an e-mail to Marcel in the hopes that he'll bring back Windows Primo and open-source it someday, as well as bringing back the NX, ECB, and CPG packages that he discontinued.

Marcel was sued by Microsoft, as you would have known if you'd done a little bit of forum searching. Do you think he's suddenly going to change his mind because someone can't be bothered to install Linux or even WSL2?

Quote:

Also, I'm going to stop using Primo altogether until you unban Sweety439 and/or restore the Windows Primo link that they posted.

Yeah, that'll show 'em. I'm sure your computations with an extremely outdated piece of single-threaded software will be sorely missed.

Finally, just leaving this behind from 2 years ago. Doesn't look like you've learned anything since then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VBCurtis

"should"? Why? What gives you authority to demand someone else release his work for free? What morality justifies your repeated "why isn't this free? I want it for free!!" demands?

I thought you were a kid making these demands when you started, but it has been years and you didn't grow out of it. It's their product, their web page, their time, their labor- they can do what they want with it. You don't even express gratitude at the labor of others, just complaints that something isn't convenient enough for you.

I hope someday you are productive enough to be on the other side of such complaints, to see how entitled and offensive they often appear.

Stargate38 · 2022-08-14, 17:40

I don't want this forum shut down. I just want Primo 3.0.1 for Windows to be made available for download again. Also, I believe that said law is in violation of the First Amendment, and therefore should be repealed, or at least modified to allow distribution of such software, provided that the contents are unmodified, and that the license file and Read Me are included, but only if the software doesn't need to be registered/unlocked. Maybe someone could upload it to the Web Archive or something. It's been discontinued for almost a decade, and I'm starting to see a problem with taking it down. Seriously, this old version is effectively "abandonware". Why would Marcel want it completely removed from the Web, when there are still people out there on old, 32-bit Windows who still need it? Not all people have multiple-processor, 64-bit PCs.

@charybdis: I don't always respond that way when I want a given program. Most of the time (if the program was previously available somewhere), I put a request on certain websites (which I won't link to) to have it re-uploaded, but if the software was never available, I usually ask the programmer for it (nicely, of course). I was only mad because it was kept closed-source.

By stopping using it, I mean both the Windows and Linux versions. I'll keep them for later, but I won't use them because I don't like it when any developer suddenly removes a given version of their software from the Web like that, sued or not sued.

Prime95 · 2022-08-14, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stargate38

I believe that said law is in violation of the First Amendment, and therefore should be repealed, or at least modified to allow distribution of such software

Huh? You need take a crash course on what the First Amendment means.

1) The amendment prohibits the *U.S. government* from controlling speech. The amendment has no authority over you, me, or Marcel from making rules about prohibited speech. For example, your employer can make rules that an employee cannot cuss out customers. I can make a rule that in my house you cannot cuss around my grandchildren's sensitive ears.

2) Why would a U.S. constitutional amendment have any bearing on the actions a French citizen takes?

Quote:

I don't always respond that way when I want a given program. Most of the time (if the program was previously available somewhere), I put a request on certain websites (which I won't link to) to have it re-uploaded

So you confess to software piracy -- a crime.

Dr Sardonicus · 2022-08-14, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stargate38

Also, I'm going to stop using Primo altogether until you unban Sweety439 and/or restore the Windows Primo link that they posted.

It wasn't a link that was removed. It was an attachment. That is a vital distinction. I am not a mindreader, so I can not tell whether your mischaracterization is a deliberate lie, or "merely" reckless disregard for the truth.

If my understanding is correct, the attachment was a copy of something that the copyright holders don't allow to be published by others. Posting such material to this Forum exposed it to civil liability for copyright violation at the very least. That could mean a lawsuit, and possibly a "preliminary injunction" shutting down the Forum entirely.

From what I have heard, Microsoft plays hardball when it comes to defending its intellectual property rights.

kriesel · 2022-08-14, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stargate38

Maybe someone could upload it to the Web Archive or something.

A bit of poking around indicates archive.org is on the side of the law.
Accesses to snapshots of what I think is the relevant link prior to November 2015 are blocked.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151124...imo/primo.html loads, yielding Linux 64 bit content only;
https://web.archive.org/web/20150917...imo/primo.html (and a sampling of earlier snapshots) yields a 403 forbidden error page.

Stargate38, I suggest you immediately stop soliciting others online to break the law. It could earn you more trouble than a mere forum ban. https://www.justia.com/criminal/offe.../solicitation/ for one
I'm not legally trained, but I doubt mistake would serve as a defense for you, since Batalov at least has explained the situation.

Re https://mersenneforum.org/showpost.p...62&postcount=6, your donations of effort or investment, or mine, do not ENTITLE us to even one minute of another's product of creative efforts.
We have source code available & right to use under certain circumstances for prime95/mprime, the product of George Woltman's quarter century plus of talented effort, because he as owner chooses it to be so, and has apparently steered skillfully through the IP & copyright shoals.
Similarly for Mlucas, CUDALucas, Gpuowl, mfaktx, etc. & their respective authors.

But not for primo, or Windows 7, 8.x, 10 or 11.

Authors may consider the possibilities of including a "law abiding users only" clause in freeware licenses. That is, a user that infringes copyright or solicits infringement of one or more software titles, or commits other criminal activity, forfeits the right to use other software titles licensed under terms including the "law abiding users only" clause. Eg infringing copyright on MS Office for example precludes use of software by George or whoever includes that clause.

Stargate38 · 2022-08-14, 18:41

The only reason that's considered piracy is due to the fact that copyright laws have changed over the past century (i.e. adding clauses related to software).

charybdis · 2022-08-14, 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stargate38

The only reason that's considered piracy is due to the fact that copyright laws have changed over the past century (i.e. adding clauses related to software).

How will that hold up in court? "I shouldn't be guilty because 100 years ago I wouldn't have been guilty, never mind that computers didn't exist 100 years ago..."

kriesel · 2022-08-14, 18:51

Software piracy did not exist as a crime, before software as something of value existed, just as grand theft auto did not exist as a crime before autos existed, or computer crime exist before computers, bank robbery before banks, ...
But they do now. Choose your actions wisely, in the context that exists now.

science_man_88 · 2022-08-14, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by charybdis

How will that hold up in court? "I shouldn't be guilty because 100 years ago I wouldn't have been guilty, never mind that computers didn't exist 100 years ago..."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine yes they did in some form

2022-08-14, 16:39	#1
Stargate38 "Daniel Jackson" May 2011 14285714285714285714 3×251 Posts	About Sweety439's ban and the removal of Windows Primo links... Please don't ban me for saying this, but I seriously disagree with how a recent event has been handled: Whoever banned Sweety439 should unban them immediately! Posting a Windows Primo link is no reason for a ban, especially when there aren't any existing download links for it! Also, people should be allowed/able to download Windows Primo, even if Marcel discontinued it. Hopefully a permanent mirror of it will be available someday. I hate it that all links to said software are being removed/taken down! Seriously, people have a right to use it, regardless of what Marcel said, even though it's heavily outdated to the point of only being useful for historical purposes (i.e. comparing to see how slow it is compared to the current version). There's no way of running Linux Primo (which is 64-bit) on 32-bit hardware. Not all people can afford to upgrade to 64-bit hardware. So please make a permanently working link for Windows Primo! I believe that all discontinued software should be archived permanently, regardless of the license. Think of all the software companies that are discontinuing programs, without even asking customers of said companies whether they should do so or not (I'm looking at Microsoft, Google, etc.), and upsetting them. Along these lines, I still haven't found a place to download the Microsoft Tag API. I remember when I first asked about that, you changed the thread title to something completely irrelevant, and made it look like I was more demanding than I actually was. I have the same opinion towards Marcel for discontinuing Windows Primo (he really upset me when he did that), and I'm hoping that he'll change his mind someday and bring it back. Not sure what it would take for that to happen, though. I've kept a copy of it on my external HDD in the hopes that you (or Marcel) would let me upload it someday to keep it from going extinct. EDIT: I've sent an e-mail to Marcel in the hopes that he'll bring back Windows Primo and open-source it someday, as well as bringing back the NX, ECB, and CPG packages that he discontinued. Also, I'm going to stop using Primo altogether until you unban Sweety439 and/or restore the Windows Primo link that they posted. Last fiddled with by Stargate38 on 2022-08-14 at 17:18 Reason: e-mailed Marcel

2022-08-14, 17:40	#4
Stargate38 "Daniel Jackson" May 2011 14285714285714285714 3·251 Posts	I don't want this forum shut down. I just want Primo 3.0.1 for Windows to be made available for download again. Also, I believe that said law is in violation of the First Amendment, and therefore should be repealed, or at least modified to allow distribution of such software, provided that the contents are unmodified, and that the license file and Read Me are included, but only if the software doesn't need to be registered/unlocked. Maybe someone could upload it to the Web Archive or something. It's been discontinued for almost a decade, and I'm starting to see a problem with taking it down. Seriously, this old version is effectively "abandonware". Why would Marcel want it completely removed from the Web, when there are still people out there on old, 32-bit Windows who still need it? Not all people have multiple-processor, 64-bit PCs. @charybdis: I don't always respond that way when I want a given program. Most of the time (if the program was previously available somewhere), I put a request on certain websites (which I won't link to) to have it re-uploaded, but if the software was never available, I usually ask the programmer for it (nicely, of course). I was only mad because it was kept closed-source. By stopping using it, I mean both the Windows and Linux versions. I'll keep them for later, but I won't use them because I don't like it when any developer suddenly removes a given version of their software from the Web like that, sued or not sued. Last fiddled with by Stargate38 on 2022-08-14 at 18:03 Reason: had to re-read the quoted thread

2022-08-14, 18:51	#10
kriesel "TF79LL86GIMPS96gpu17" Mar 2017 US midwest 2·29·127 Posts	Software piracy did not exist as a crime, before software as something of value existed, just as grand theft auto did not exist as a crime before autos existed, or computer crime exist before computers, bank robbery before banks, ... But they do now. Choose your actions wisely, in the context that exists now. Last fiddled with by kriesel on 2022-08-14 at 18:53

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2022-08-14, 17:25	#2
Batalov "Serge" Mar 2008 Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2 2³·3·419 Posts	In short, you declare once again (and done plenty before) that you have no understanding of the words "intellectual property", "copyright", "license" , "legal action" and so on. Please spell out below that your intention is to get this forum shut down by court. That would suit you fine? If a friend puts some stolen property in your house (without you knowing it) and then innocently tells you that he will get it out soon, just needs a bit of time to keep it somewhere and why not your house. Wouldn't you throw him and his stolen stuff out of your house and tell him that you won't be seeing him any time soon? Re-read this. ____ ok, for those who cannot read. For those who confuse terms "free of charge" and "free of obligations". Pay attention to this, rather common, phrase: "the Author hereby grants the User a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to install and to use the Software." This is very common. thousands of sites use it. It means: "You can download it here. You cannot re-share it with other people. They can download it here, too."

2022-08-14, 18:41	#8
Stargate38 "Daniel Jackson" May 2011 14285714285714285714 3·251 Posts	The only reason that's considered piracy is due to the fact that copyright laws have changed over the past century (i.e. adding clauses related to software).