mersenneforum.org  

Go Back   mersenneforum.org > Extra Stuff > Hobbies > Chess > Other Chess Games

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2016-09-16, 16:22   #1
MooMoo2
 
MooMoo2's Avatar
 
Aug 2010

25A16 Posts
Default Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 2 discussion

The poll for move 1 just closed, and the most popular move was ...c5. Stockfish played 2. Nf3, and the FEN is:
rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/2p5/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 1 2

Game so far: 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3

Depth: 46 ply. Nodes searched: 688,388,460,608 (~688 G)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	position.png
Views:	49
Size:	11.2 KB
ID:	14923  
MooMoo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-16, 16:33   #2
unconnected
 
unconnected's Avatar
 
May 2009
Russia, Moscow

9DF16 Posts
Default

2.. d6! Let's play Najdorf variation.
unconnected is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-16, 16:58   #3
henryzz
Just call me Henry
 
henryzz's Avatar
 
"David"
Sep 2007
Cambridge (GMT/BST)

25·181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unconnected View Post
2.. d6! Let's play Najdorf variation.
That is my normal variation.
henryzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-17, 03:40   #4
axn
 
axn's Avatar
 
Jun 2003

23·5·112 Posts
Default

d6 sounds cool. The other popular alternatives are Nc6 and e6 (just so we have something for the polls )

Last fiddled with by axn on 2016-09-17 at 03:43 Reason: e6 also
axn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-17, 06:23   #5
LaurV
Romulan Interpreter
 
LaurV's Avatar
 
Jun 2011
Thailand

3·17·179 Posts
Default

Here black has 3 main lines of continuation, and few more secondary lines.

I will play any one is chosen, but personally I don't like d6, even if the DB says it is the most played. A reason I don't like it much is because it locks the f8 bishop, and it opens the access to black king. In all those first 5 or 6 diagrams in the link above, black bishop on f8 is locked and it does not develop much. My version is usually 2...e6, and I try to go for the 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 or 5....Bb4, where black can easily castle, the pieces are well developed, and it can double to white's pawns in c. Of course, this comes with a disadvantage, that black gives up the center.

In the hierarchy, I put 2...Nc6 after 2...e6, and the 2..d6 is last. The 2..Nc6 game results in quite strong games in the middle, developing all horses, etc, like in: 2....Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5, (also the e pawn!). Here black is aggressive in center, we have to forbid white to take advantage of his first move, not let him to reach the target before us, just because he has a head start. This position is somehow complicate to play in friendly games, that is why I play e6. But maybe it is good to play it against a chess engine? Make its life complicate, hehe...

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-09-17 at 06:26
LaurV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-17, 13:24   #6
WMHalsdorf
 
WMHalsdorf's Avatar
 
Feb 2005
Bristol, CT

20116 Posts
Default

If playing a human I would play either 2...Nc6 or 2...g6 depending on how well I knew the other player. Based on our last game I would go with 2..Nc6.
WMHalsdorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-17, 17:32   #7
gd_barnes
 
gd_barnes's Avatar
 
May 2007
Kansas; USA

282716 Posts
Default

I agree with LaurV's analysis. In correspondence play, I am fond of the 2...e6 variation instead of d6 or Nc6 for mostly the same reasons that he states. The f8 bishop is opened up and the win percentage in the database for black is very close to that for white. We will be trying for a win in this one and I feel that e6 gives us the best chance.

Last fiddled with by gd_barnes on 2016-09-17 at 17:35
gd_barnes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-18, 19:25   #8
henryzz
Just call me Henry
 
henryzz's Avatar
 
"David"
Sep 2007
Cambridge (GMT/BST)

25·181 Posts
Default

I need to study this further. For this move I am fine doing something like e6. The more reasoning the better though for the next few moves. I use these games as a learning experience as much as anything.
henryzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-19, 21:34   #9
WMHalsdorf
 
WMHalsdorf's Avatar
 
Feb 2005
Bristol, CT

33·19 Posts
Default

After looking at what might could possible happen with 2...e6 I've decide to go along with that suggested move.
WMHalsdorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2016-09-19, 21:35   #10
henryzz
Just call me Henry
 
henryzz's Avatar
 
"David"
Sep 2007
Cambridge (GMT/BST)

25×181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurV View Post
Here black has 3 main lines of continuation, and few more secondary lines.

I will play any one is chosen, but personally I don't like d6, even if the DB says it is the most played.
Quote:
A reason I don't like it much is because it locks the f8 bishop, and it opens the access to black king.
This is why the Najdorf variation is so popular as it protects the king. That is assuming that d4 is played before Bb5+ of course.
The f8 bishop is locked somewhat however it plays an important role for me after Bg5 which is often played against me. If Be3 is played instead it is a little inactive.

Quote:
In all those first 5 or 6 diagrams in the link above, black bishop on f8 is locked and it does not develop much.
Nc6 is little better. The Sveshnikov variation does d6 in move 6 before moving the bishop. The Kalashnikov does d6 in move 5. None of these let the bishop out.
The other option is the dragon variants. g6 lets the bishop out but does have its weaknesses.
e6 is looking good at this point as it allows the bishop out more.

Quote:
My version is usually 2...e6, and I try to go for the 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 or 5....Bb4, where black can easily castle, the pieces are well developed, and it can double to white's pawns in c. Of course, this comes with a disadvantage, that black gives up the center.
I have been looking at 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 on http://chesstempo.com/game-database.html
5....Bb4 has a very high win percentage for White which I feel that a chess engine would take advantage of. Wikipedia also mentions that this works better at over the board chess.
I also prefer to keep bishops on the board in preference to knights as it is always possible to open up a position but not close it.
Where do we plan to put the d pawn? If we do d5 we end up with a isolated pawn after exd5 exd5. d6 after Bb4 or Bc5? These pawns are a bit backward. I personally like e5.

Quote:
In the hierarchy, I put 2...Nc6 after 2...e6, and the 2..d6 is last. The 2..Nc6 game results in quite strong games in the middle, developing all horses, etc, like in: 2....Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5, (also the e pawn!). Here black is aggressive in center, we have to forbid white to take advantage of his first move, not let him to reach the target before us, just because he has a head start. This position is somehow complicate to play in friendly games, that is why I play e6. But maybe it is good to play it against a chess engine? Make its life complicate, hehe...
Nc6 isn't much better than d6 from what I can see as d6 is normally done before the bishop is moved. d6 allows e5 while I am not fond of e6 followed by d5 as that leaves an isolated pawn. Order of preference d6 e6 Nc6 for me in general I think. Maybe e6 tries for a win more as it uses that bishop more.

Gary, at what position do your get white and black equal? I don't on http://chesstempo.com/game-database.html.

Part of my issue is that I know d6 much better than the other moves.
henryzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 36 discussion. Drawn game? MooMoo2 Other Chess Games 10 2017-04-29 17:39
Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 25 discussion MooMoo2 Other Chess Games 6 2017-02-14 00:30
Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 20 discussion MooMoo2 Other Chess Games 6 2017-01-02 21:49
Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 16 discussion MooMoo2 Other Chess Games 4 2016-12-10 16:50
Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 15 discussion MooMoo2 Other Chess Games 5 2016-12-06 05:27

All times are UTC. The time now is 15:26.

Fri Jan 15 15:26:40 UTC 2021 up 43 days, 11:37, 0 users, load averages: 1.76, 1.57, 1.65

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum has received and complied with 0 (zero) government requests for information.

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
A copy of the license is included in the FAQ.