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2022-01-20, 15:36   #1629
Dr Sardonicus

Feb 2017
Nowhere

169D16 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by retina AIUI he met all the criteria with regard to recovery from covid within 6 months and/or got the vax (for him it was the former).
That was what the Tournament required. Unfortunately, AIUI it isn't what Australian Immigration requires.

The "mouthing off" part did play into the re-cancellation of his visa. The Immigration Minister argued that kicking him out was in the interests of "good public order." His lawyers tried to counter that this was "irrational"' because his fans might riot if he was deported. The court didn't buy it. He was deported. AFAIK his fans didn't riot.

2022-01-20, 15:39   #1630
Dr Sardonicus

Feb 2017
Nowhere

7×827 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by kriesel It's been proposed by some in the USA, to not only recognize the right to refuse care, which we already have, but to selectively mandate the withholding of care from some, which is a whole other kettle of fish, potentially lethal discrimination for those who hold certain political or religious views.
"Proposed by" who, exactly? Late night talk show hosts?
Quote:
 So now the proposal is to put government in the role of withholding care, on grounds of the religious or political views of citizens being not the approved views?
Whose "proposal?"

Your whole premise is bogus. Choosing not to get vaccinated isn't a "political or religious view," it's a course of action. And others can make decisions about that course of action irrespective of its motivation.

Quote:
 It is not customary or I think legal, to withhold care from motorcyclists who ride without helmets.
As I have previously indicated, this comparison is deceptive.

Besides, which, you haven't offered any evidence that anyone is proposing to withhold medical care from the unvaccinated.

In years gone by, I have heard doctors in hospitals intimating that they should refuse to care for lawyers (medical malpractice lawyers in particular). That clearly is withholding of care for non-medical reasons.

In the present instance, I have found news items about physicians telling patients who come to their offices that they can either get vaccinated or find another doctor, we'll forward your medical records. This is NOT "withholding of care" in the sense of a hospital turning away someone urgently in need of care.

I have also found companies, as part of "wellness programs," hiking premiums for employees who refuse to get vaccinated for COVID. As I read the guidelines, they can hike the premiums by up to 30% of the total (employer plus employee contribution). I note that for "wellness programs" to discourage smoking, the company can hike premiums up to 50% rather than 30%.

I note that "High-risk activities" like scuba diving, mountain climbing, or motorcycle racing can also increase your life insurance premiums.

I'd say that refusing to get vaccinated against a contagious and deadly disease qualifies as "high risk."

I have also seen companies (like Carhartt) making vaccination a condition of employment. I find it amusing that folks who were howling about the federal workplace regulation recently nixed by the Supremes, were arguing that companies should be allowed to decide what's best for their employees. But now, it seems, that only applies to decisions they happen to agree with.

I have seen proposals that unvaccinated COVID patients have to pay out of pocket if they require medical treatment for COVID, rather than having insurance underwrite them. But I doubt insurance benefits come anywhere close to covering the medical costs of some of these people anyway. I've seen any number of cases where an unvaccinated person dies of COVID or ensuing complications after a prolonged hospital stay, leaving behind a family reduced to beggary.

Update on the case in the "previously indicated" link above: Last I checked, the gofundme page had raised about $22,000 of its$100,000 goal. Also, the widower may soon be unemployed. He is an ER nurse at McLaren Oakland in Pontiac, which is enrolled in Medicare. He is not vaccinated against COVID. The Supremes recently allowed the health care worker mandate to proceed...

Last fiddled with by Dr Sardonicus on 2022-01-20 at 15:42 Reason: xignif optys

2022-01-20, 18:34   #1631
Batalov

"Serge"
Mar 2008
Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2

3·29·113 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by retina AIUI he met all the criteria with regard to recovery from covid within 6 months and/or got the vax (for him it was the former).
I got this piece of news in the news reel --
Quote:
 A well-known Czech folk singer has died after intentionally exposing herself to Covid-19 in a bid to gain greater access to venues and events.
And I hear, anecdotally, that some people do the "covid parties" just like they used to do "chickenpox parties" decades ago (and still now).

2022-01-20, 20:53   #1632
ewmayer
2ω=0

Sep 2002
República de California

24×733 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Batalov I hear, anecdotally, that some people do the "covid parties" just like they used to do "chickenpox parties" decades ago (and still now).
With chickenpox, in the days before there was an effective anti-varicella vaccine, deliberate exposure of young children was a not-unreasonable choice, given the greatly increased severity and risk of the disease in adults (I speak from painful personal experience). Covid is another matter entirely.

Re. proposals to deny medical care, here The Atlantic, normally a reliable establishment mouthpiece:

It’s a Terrible Idea to Deny Medical Care to Unvaccinated People

That gives several links to op-eds proposing doctors "give priority to the vaccinated", one by Ruth Marcus, deputy editorial page editor of the Washington Post.

This is in the context of broader pushes for often-extreme civil liberties curtailment for the unvaccinated:

o French leader Macron has condemned the vaccinated as non-citizens: “Un irresponsable n’est plus un citoyen” : cette autre phrase de Macron sur les non-vaccinés qui choque

o French parliament approves law that will exclude unvaccinated people from all restaurants, sports areas, tourist sites and even trains | Daily Mail: Macron faces criticism rule is overkill with 91 per cent of the population already jabbed against Covid

o Similarly, Canadian PM Justin Trudeau has characterized unvaccinated person as "racist and misogynistic extremists". Further, Covid: Quebec to impose health tax on unvaccinated Canadians | BBC

o COVID-19: Democratic Voters Support Harsh Measures Against Unvaccinated | Rassmussen: “Nearly half (48%) of Democratic voters think federal and state governments should be able to fine or imprison individuals who publicly question the efficacy of the existing COVID-19 vaccines on social media, television, radio, or in online or digital publications.”

The extremeness of the proposed and in-some-case-already-implemented measures is especially notable given that the current vaccines are clearly [a] non-sterilizing and [b] of dubious efficacy in preventing transmission, those qualities being even more pronounced with regard to the newer viral variants. This is not smallpox or polio vaccine we're talking about, which are sterilizing and overwhelmingly - though not 100% - safe. I speak as someone who is double-vaxxed (Pfizer mRNA) and boosted (J&J adenovirus-vector), and who was sick for 2-3 days following each of the 2 mRNA shots last Spring, but fortunately was not at risk of losing my job for taking "unapproved sick leave", as many "essential workers" appear to be. Relatedly, being threatened with job loss can have major health-related implications, since in a medicine-for-profit system such as the U.S., loss of income and health insurance - for those lucky enough to have it via their workplace - can very much amount to "denial of medical care".

 2022-01-20, 21:38 #1633 kriesel     "TF79LL86GIMPS96gpu17" Mar 2017 US midwest 73×89 Posts Easily found articles, via https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=pol...cinated&ia=web include: Resident Biden ordered withholding health care from unvaccinated veterans https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/un...rans-benefits/ Withholding federal funds from nursing homes that don't mandate staff vaccinations (comply or go broke) A nursing home that closes because it's bankrupted provides no health care. https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrews...h=7935457b7387 Etc. https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...942_story.html Given the rate of breakthrough infection, it is unlikely we will reach Covid19 herd immunity, estimated to require 94% immunity. Even if the government sends out the national guard with medics to forcibly vaccinate every one of the vaccinatable holdouts, and totally seals all paths of entry for the duration. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/art-20486808 The unvaccinatable currently include the 0-4 age group which constitutes ~20M, of the ~330M population, leaving 310/320 ~ 0.94 as an upper bound. Those above age 4 who for other reasons can not be vaccinated, or who despite vaccination do not develop resulting immunity, reduce the bound further. Herd immunity estimated immunity rate can not currently be achieved. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/C...conference.pdf Even 100% vaccination of the entire population does not provide herd immunity. The vaccines' observed effectiveness is lower than that estimated to be required for herd immunity. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...Gelles-508.pdf
2022-01-20, 21:54   #1634
Dr Sardonicus

Feb 2017
Nowhere

169D16 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by kriesel Resident Biden ordered withholding health care from unvaccinated veterans https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/un...rans-benefits/
Perhaps the meaning of the rating "Labeled Satire" was not clear to you...

2022-01-20, 22:09   #1635
Dr Sardonicus

Feb 2017
Nowhere

7·827 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ewmayer With chickenpox, in the days before there was an effective anti-varicella vaccine, deliberate exposure of young children was a not-unreasonable choice, given the greatly increased severity and risk of the disease in adults (I speak from painful personal experience). Covid is another matter entirely. Re. proposals to deny medical care, here The Atlantic, normally a reliable establishment mouthpiece: It’s a Terrible Idea to Deny Medical Care to Unvaccinated People That gives several links to op-eds proposing doctors "give priority to the vaccinated", one by Ruth Marcus, deputy editorial page editor of the Washington Post.

I'd say a WAPO op-ed definitely qualifies as "other than a late-night talk show host" though some may say there's a strong resemblance

Luckily, no actual policy proposals - at least, not here in the USA.

Quote:
 Relatedly, being threatened with job loss can have major health-related implications, since in a medicine-for-profit system such as the U.S., loss of income and health insurance - for those lucky enough to have it via their workplace - can very much amount to "denial of medical care".
I wonder how many of the folks who are refusing to get vaccinated, would also scream bloody murder at the prospect of replacing our for-profit health care system by SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!

2022-01-20, 22:22   #1636
chalsall
If I May

"Chris Halsall"
Sep 2002

22×2,617 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ewmayer With chickenpox, in the days before there was an effective anti-varicella vaccine, deliberate exposure of young children was a not-unreasonable choice, given the greatly increased severity and risk of the disease in adults (I speak from painful personal experience). Covid is another matter entirely.
Indeed. We keep being told by sociologists that the worst thing one can do when trying to convince someone they are wrong is to tell them they are wrong.

Even, empirically, with empirical evidence.

The question then becomes... What is to be done?

This is a serious question.

Are there any serious answers? Seriously.

2022-01-21, 00:14   #1637
kriesel

"TF79LL86GIMPS96gpu17"
Mar 2017
US midwest

11001011000012 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus Perhaps the meaning of the rating "Labeled Satire" was not clear to you...
I did not wastespend enough time on the post to read that far.
However, note this published proposal: house arrest for the unvaccinated, enforced by deploying the military. https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2022/01...-homes-n442041

No comment from you on the futility of attempting herd immunity, I see.

Last fiddled with by kriesel on 2022-01-21 at 00:16

 2022-01-21, 01:50 #1638 rogue     "Mark" Apr 2003 Between here and the 2×3,301 Posts Maybe if one is not vaccinated and gets covid and is hospitalized that they should pay the entire cost out of pocket with no government subsidies. If they don't have the money to pay for their care, they can go home or they can go massively in debt, which happens to people without covid quite frequently. Since most of the unvaccinated do not want socialized medicine, they would be hard-pressed to complain that they are not getting what they want.
 2022-01-21, 02:38 #1639 Uncwilly 6809 > 6502     """"""""""""""""""" Aug 2003 101×103 Posts 32·1,171 Posts Send the 4 year-olds home until they pay up.

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