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Old 2015-11-09, 19:12   #23
Dubslow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
Shared by many.

With respect to the current topic: what is it that you do not trust?

If indeed they have discovered a classic attack on EC, they can have very good
reasons for not disclosing it. For one thing, it would cause panic with respect to
who/how/where it is currently being used. I would render criminal attacks on
IPSEC possible. Can you imagine the consequences to IFT?
I do not trust the NSA's seeming desire to intrude on anyone and anything, in direct defiance of the constitution (IMO, IANAL), especially things which have no relation whatsoever to national security. (National "Security" Agency is too kind, IMO. National Spying-on-our-own-citizens Agency, sure.)

There's no particular relation to the current topic, except for the basic how cryptography and privacy go hand in hand of course. If indeed indeed they have broken ECC, then they would be masters of the internet, able to spy on and spoof nearly everything (unless we all somehow fell back to RSA immediately... though, from a relative layman's perspective, surely whatever breakthrough in the elliptic discrete logarithms would have a pretty great impact on our understanding of integer factorization as well?).

You'll have to specify what you mean by IFT though.

Last fiddled with by Dubslow on 2015-11-09 at 19:13
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Old 2015-11-09, 19:25   #24
chalsall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubslow View Post
IYou'll have to specify what you mean by IFT though.
I also wondered what IFT stood for in this context.

It will be interesting to see how this is answered.
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Old 2015-11-09, 20:40   #25
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In the light of some last years research[1] on published curves, P-384 didn't perform well in regards of safeness. Keep it unsecure enough to read what's on the wire.

[1] http://safecurves.cr.yp.to/
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Old 2015-11-09, 20:51   #26
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In the light of some last years research[1] on published curves, P-384 didn't perform well in regards of safeness. Keep it unsecure enough to read what's on the wire.
Wow. Seriously crash and burn.

Is there any creative commons material available in that experiment?

That's a serious question.
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Old 2015-11-09, 22:40   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubslow View Post
I do not trust the NSA's seeming desire to intrude on anyone and anything, in direct defiance of the constitution (IMO, IANAL), especially things which have no relation whatsoever to national security. (National "Security" Agency is too kind, IMO. National Spying-on-our-own-citizens Agency, sure.)
"nothing to do with national security" is an assertion on your part. You can not know whether it is true or
false. Even I do not know. Their "spying on Americans" might be nothing more than an attempt
to intercept terrorist communication. WE DO NOT KNOW THE TRUTH. We only have suspicion.

Quote:
There's no particular relation to the current topic, except for the basic how cryptography and privacy go hand in hand of course. If indeed indeed they have broken ECC, then they would be masters of the internet, able to spy on and spoof nearly everything (unless we all somehow fell back to RSA immediately... though, from a relative layman's perspective, surely whatever breakthrough in the elliptic discrete logarithms would have a pretty great impact on our understanding of integer factorization as well?).

You'll have to specify what you mean by IFT though.
International Funds Transfer......

Your assertion about "if broken EC,... then able to spy on everything" shows GROSS ignorance and is false.
Most Internet traffic uses IPSEC based on DH or RSA. There are very few implementations that
actually use EC. Why? Interoperability.

And breaking DL over a cyclic group does not help with factoring. DL over an arbitrary RING
would help, but for that all we have is Pollard Rho and its variations.
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Old 2015-11-09, 22:50   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
I also do not believe that Alfred would act out of financial self-interest..
I believe that as well having met the gentleman.

The October 2013 HBR issue and the May/June 2014 MIT Technology Review contain relevant articles respectively.
The EFF is a worthwhile source to consult as well.

Last fiddled with by jwaltos on 2015-11-09 at 22:54
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Old 2015-11-10, 06:47   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
"nothing to do with national security" is an assertion on your part. You can not know whether it is true or
false. Even I do not know. Their "spying on Americans" might be nothing more than an attempt
to intercept terrorist communication. WE DO NOT KNOW THE TRUTH. We only have suspicion.
Spying on every single American they can get their hands on has nothing to do with national security. Spying on certain Americans who are deemed by other factors to be risks is related to national security at least, as long as there is a court-worthy rationale and the spying is indeed targeted and limited to the "risk".

It is well established that the NSA spies on anything and everything they can get their hands on. That has nothing to do with national security, that only has to do with power tripping. (Yes, they may stumble upon something worthwhile, but the ends very certainly do not justify the means, and the means in this case risk everything this democracy was founded upon.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
Your assertion about "if broken EC,... then able to spy on everything" shows GROSS ignorance and is false.
Most Internet traffic uses IPSEC based on DH or RSA. There are very few implementations that
actually use EC. Why? Interoperability.
Perhaps. There is indeed a lot of traffic that does use EC, and practically no new security from the last decade uses DH/RSA. Small but growing. Either way, it would be an extreme amount of power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
And breaking DL over a cyclic group does not help with factoring. DL over an arbitrary RING
would help, but for that all we have is Pollard Rho and its variations.
Ah, gotcha. My knowledge on this subject is second hand, gleaned from various sources which generally assume a bit more background than I have. (I do have enough background to know what cyclic groups and rings are, but not terribly much more.)
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Old 2015-11-10, 17:38   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
And breaking DL over a cyclic group does not help with factoring. DL over an arbitrary RING would help, but for that all we have is Pollard Rho and its variations.
Understood. But let's run a thought experiment...

Assume that a Quantum Computer with four (4) qbits was available retail. (This is actually true; if you have a few million dollars available you can buy one from D-Wave Systems today; Google and NASA have.)

Would one not reasonably assume that what nation states have available are at least two generations better?

End of the day, perhaps all must assume that they cannot communicate securely unless they have access to quantum communications? Or, else, simply meet in "meat space" to talk (keeping in mind listening devices, including parabolic listening devices).

My personal response to this is I don't do anything (terribly) bad, and I don't travel unless I need to.
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Old 2015-11-10, 18:02   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalsall View Post
Understood. But let's run a thought experiment...

Assume that a Quantum Computer with four (4) qbits was available retail. (This is actually true; if you have a few million dollars available you can buy one from D-Wave Systems today; Google and NASA have.)

Would one not reasonably assume that what nation states have available are at least two generations better?
I would not make such an assumption.
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Old 2015-11-10, 18:10   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
I would not make such an assumption.
Why not?

Seems reasonable to me based on the available empirical evidence.

Please (PLEASE) tell me why I might be incorrect.
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Old 2015-11-10, 21:15   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalsall View Post
Please (PLEASE) tell me why I might be incorrect.
For one thing, the D-Wave system isn't a general-purpose quantum computer and in particular is incapable of running Shor's algorithm.
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