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Old 2021-09-08, 12:59   #1420
retina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
"Un-American."
I find it ironic that putting the entire population into the same box as a collective group of "this is what Americans do, if you don't do it then you are un-American" can also be seen as "un-American". LOL.

And who gets to decide what is un-American anyway? Is there a dictator declaring it? That would be un-American! LOL

Last fiddled with by retina on 2021-09-08 at 12:59
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Old 2021-09-08, 14:14   #1421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
I find it ironic that putting the entire population into the same box as a collective group of "this is what Americans do, if you don't do it then you are un-American" can also be seen as "un-American". LOL.
Ironic indeed. In the case in point, the very same Americans who rail about getting immunized against COVID-19 being an "individual choice" are also following, sheep-like, the liars and demagogues who are denouncing rationality and science as "un-American."

Ironic, too, is that the founders of this nation were very much figures of the Enlightenment - people who saw reason and science as providing ways to benefit mankind. Thomas Jefferson invented an improved plow. Benjamin Franklin mapped the Gulf Stream, did many experiments with electricity, and invented the lightning rod - an invention he provided free to the world, seeing it as too important to try to make money from. Now the order of the day WRT science and reason seems to be "Lghts out."

Quote:
And who gets to decide what is un-American anyway? Is there a dictator declaring it? That would be un-American! LOL
Currently, it is the reich wing shrieking the loudest about what is and who are un-American. Yes, there is a dictator declaring it - the guy who lost the last presidential election. And yes, it is un-American.

Alas, it is becoming increasingly difficult to laugh about it...

Last fiddled with by Dr Sardonicus on 2021-09-08 at 14:15 Reason: xinfig posty
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Old 2021-09-09, 16:55   #1422
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It seems some folks are saying they would rather die than get vaccinated for COVID. As Ebenezer Scrooge said,

If they be like to die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

I would say, hey - ii that's how you want it, that's your right. In order to reinforce your belief, so be it: If you get COVID, no medical attention. No doctors, no scrip meds, no hospital treatment.

Meanwhile, it seems there's an addlepated idea among antivaxxers that their "pure" semen will become valuable - like a new bitcoin.

It might be worth harvesting their semen just to keep it out of the gene pool...
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Old 2021-09-09, 17:13   #1423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
It might be worth harvesting their semen just to keep it out of the gene pool...
I'd be willing to claim I am unvaccinated just get to get the free harvesting session.

Can I get to choose beforehand which assistant does the deed?
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Old 2021-09-09, 20:33   #1424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
I'd be willing to claim I am unvaccinated just get to get the free harvesting session.

Can I get to choose beforehand which assistant does the deed?
You have plenty of minions already. Get one of them to do it for you and don't be greedy.

Alternatively, take matters into your own hands.
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Old 2021-09-09, 20:41   #1425
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Don't want to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle? No problem. Just require a $10M medical insurance policy.

Don't want to be vaccinated? No problem. Just have people pay the actual cost for their medical care. Our insurance premiums shouldn't cover willfully obtuse people. Just like people who smoke cigarettes have to pay more.

We wish this pandemic had been framed as a "Great War", like WW2. Maybe literally, with an actual declaration of war from congress.

We read about people recycling rubber and steel and kids gathering stuff up, and food rationing and all sorts of sacrifices for the greater good. Manufacturers being refitted to make tanks and rifles and stuff like that.

Example: https://www.aarp.org/politics-societ...rationing.html

Why should this pandemic be different? It is just as deadly.

The selfishness we see people display really saddens us.

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Old 2021-09-09, 21:07   #1426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyzzy View Post
The selfishness we see people display really saddens us.
+1.

What is even sadder is the selfishness is being encouraged, and then leveraged, by others.
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Old 2021-09-09, 22:20   #1427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyzzy View Post
Don't want to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle? No problem. Just require a $10M medical insurance policy.
And be an organ donor.
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Old 2021-09-09, 22:27   #1428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
I'd be willing to claim I am unvaccinated just get to get the free harvesting session.

Can I get to choose beforehand which assistant does the deed?
I forgot to mention - in order to preserve the value of their donations (by keeping it rare, you see) donors will have to undergo a sterilization procedure immediately afterward. When I said "keep it out of the gene pool," I meant it. But to your question. Hmm, it will be the last experience of its kind, so why not let donors choose their assistants?

People who believe "unvaccinated men will have pure semen that will be valuable" remind me of the scene in Dr. Strangelove in which General Jack D. Ripper is raving about fluoridation being a plot to "sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyzzy View Post
<snip>
We wish this pandemic had been framed as a "Great War", like WW2. Maybe literally, with an actual declaration of war from congress.
<snip>
Why should this pandemic be different? It is just as deadly.

The selfishness we see people display really saddens us.

Yes, it is bad. I am disgusted to see so many people to whom "the general welfare" (a phrase from the preamble to the Constitution of the United States) isn't even on their radar.

But even worse, I never thought I would live to see one of our major political parties dedicate itself to refusing to deal with a clear and present danger to this country - a contagious and deadly disease. It makes me ashamed of my country.

Alas, it's the anti-vaxxer cult which has adopted the war rhetoric. I've heard pols describing mask and vaccination mandates as worse than slavery. Mandates are also described as a government attack on us. They also claim vaccine mandates violate the Nuremberg Code, and people administering vaccines can be executed. A Maine State Representative compared her Governor to Josef Mengele for adding COVID vaccines to the list of vaccines mandated for health care workers in that state.

Anti-vaxxers may have achieved herd immunity to facts and sense, but, overwhelmingly they're the ones who are dying of COVID. That's the rule with death cults: Adhere today, gone tomorrow...
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Old 2021-09-09, 23:15   #1429
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Like engineering and many other things, the practice of medicine is not perfect. Everywhere there are tradeoffs.

Covid19 vaccine adverse reaction data summary from CDC web pages:

Re J&J/Janssen vaccine, adverse reactions:
anaphylaxis 2-5ppm
Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia 2ppm
Guillain-Barre syndrome ~12ppm
Those are the officially reported, and in most cases confirmed cases, not all cases occurring.

overall, all vaccines:
death, 20 ppm
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html

Complicating things, there are reactions to placebo also
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-1...ogenicity.html
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-1...ogenicity.html

Allergies are not random; there's a quite significant heritability. ~60-80% from a parent.
So for specific persons, the tradeoffs may be far more severe than the population average.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18361713/
So if a close relative has a bad reaction from a specific vaccine or other exposure, it may be wise to avoid it.

Some allergy responses can be promptly life threatening.
(And medical staff have been known to get drug allergies backward, and insist they have it correct, in a case that might have been lethal to a child had the same been prescribed and given again after a severe allergic response the previous time.)

The ongoing fatality rate in the US from medical error is estimated at 250,000/year. That's out of 12,000,000 misdiagnoses, of which 6,000,000 are harmful. Annually.
https://mymedicalscore.com/medical-error-statistics/
The accumulated death toll attributed to Covid19 is mildly larger than the usual medical error estimated fatality rate over a similar period. (Not saying the medical staff aren't trying hard to do a good job; it's just hard.)

edit: except medical error may be seriously underestimated: this article says 400,000+/year
https://journals.lww.com/journalpati...t_Harms.2.aspx (end edit)

Here's an article some may enjoy, that deals both with legal precedent for compulsory vaccination, and with familial links to adverse reactions. https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...ecedent-510280
What is the right tradeoff, of fatality rate or probability of permanent harm upon vaccination, for what probability of fatality that a vaccine may protect against?
How much severity and probability of individual harm may an elevated-risk-of-adverse-reaction person be subjected to against their will, to help achieve herd immunity?

Last fiddled with by kriesel on 2021-09-09 at 23:29
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Old 2021-09-09, 23:25   #1430
tServo
 
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Default Constitutionality of vaccine mandates ?

Here's an article from Politico as per the title of this post.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...=pocket-newtab

In a few words, there is a strong precedent for vaccine mandates based on a 1904 ruling.

Last fiddled with by tServo on 2021-09-09 at 23:25
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