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Old 2015-04-06, 12:29   #12
R.D. Silverman
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by science_man_88 View Post
channeling my inner RDS I can't understand that if someone is so perplexed by a problem they can't be bothered to do a quick google search: Illusory superiority is one potential explanation that came up.
I suggested Dunning and Kruger. I have read about this subject.

"illusory superiority" does not explain it. The phenomenon under discussion is different. Here, people who know that
they have not studied a technical subject (in this case math) believe that somehow they can make a contribution that
has been "missed" by many experts over centuries of time.

It is not a case of people believing that they are "better than average" at math. They don't believe themselves to be superior.

They seem to be fully aware that they don't know much math. Yet they still imagine that they can find something
that has been missed by many, many experts.

As I said, it is similar to believing that a baker has never put his hand in a bag of flour.

Is it just ignorance? Even when I was in the 7'th grade (pre U.S. High school) I was aware that there was a lot
more to math than I knew about and I would never presume to believe that I could find something that had
been missed by PhD's. This is what I am asking: How do people come to believe that they have found an idea
that has been missed by PhD's (or people who have studied a subject for many years).

Perhaps it is just Dunning & Kruger: The inability to recognize (or acknowledge) true expertise in others.

We do not know the general level of education of the O.P.
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Old 2015-04-06, 12:35   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
I suggested Dunning and Kruger. I have read about this subject.

"illusory superiority" does not explain it. The phenomenon under discussion is different. Here, people who know that
they have not studied a technical subject (in this case math) believe that somehow they can make a contribution that
has been "missed" by many experts over centuries of time.

It is not a case of people believing that they are "better than average" at math. They don't believe themselves to be superior.

They seem to be fully aware that they don't know much math. Yet they still imagine that they can find something
that has been missed by many, many experts.

As I said, it is similar to believing that a baker has never put his hand in a bag of flour.

Is it just ignorance? Even when I was in the 7'th grade (pre U.S. High school) I was aware that there was a lot
more to math than I knew about and I would never presume to believe that I could find something that had
been missed by PhD's. This is what I am asking: How do people come to believe that they have found an idea
that has been missed by PhD's (or people who have studied a subject for many years).

Perhaps it is just Dunning & Kruger: The inability to recognize (or acknowledge) true expertise in others.

We do not know the general level of education of the O.P.
Take a different field of study. Say biology or chemistry. Do you imagine that total novices in these fields
(and who are aware they are novices) believe that they can come up with a new idea that has been missed?

What is it about math in particular that makes people prone to this?
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Old 2015-04-06, 12:42   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
Take a different field of study. Say biology or chemistry. Do you imagine that total novices in these fields
(and who are aware they are novices) believe that they can come up with a new idea that has been missed?

What is it about math in particular that makes people prone to this?
Maybe someone should check whether it is merely a selection bias in action here or if it is a real phenomenon that maths attracts more D/K effect than other fields of discipline.
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Old 2015-04-06, 12:46   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
Maybe someone should check whether it is merely a selection bias in action here or if it is a real phenomenon that maths attracts more D/K effect than other fields of discipline.
One possible explanation. Math requires tools that are easily accessible. Other fields require
laboratories/special equipment/ etc.
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Old 2015-04-06, 12:49   #16
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Well.. it was for misc math from the beginning, but now it is more than then..
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Old 2015-04-06, 12:56   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurV View Post
Well.. it was for misc math from the beginning, but now it is more than then..
Huh?
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Old 2015-04-06, 13:35   #18
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I don't think people believe they found something altogether "new" in the first place. Often, they just found "something" and show it around, like kids, when they manage for the first time to build a tower out of bricks, or draw a house. From here, it is then a matter of providing guidance in the right direction to foster more interest and curiosity in what mathematics has to offer. A bit of talent and endurance then paves the way to understanding and acknowledgement. So, often people think "they can find something" - yes, but "been missed by many, many experts"? - no. Just show them the way and wait.
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Old 2015-04-06, 14:16   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blip View Post
I don't think people believe they found something altogether "new" in the first place. Often, they just found "something" and show it around, like kids, when they manage for the first time to build a tower out of bricks, or draw a house. From here, it is then a matter of providing guidance in the right direction to foster more interest and curiosity in what mathematics has to offer. A bit of talent and endurance then paves the way to understanding and acknowledgement. So, often people think "they can find something" - yes, but "been missed by many, many experts"? - no. Just show them the way and wait.
I think you've hit the nail on the head in this case. Unlike many, he doesn't seem sure he's discovered something new. Rather, he thinks he's discovered something, pretty sure it's been found before, and is asking for more information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
"illusory superiority" does not explain it. The phenomenon under discussion is different. Here, people who know that
they have not studied a technical subject (in this case math) believe that somehow they can make a contribution that
has been "missed" by many experts over centuries of time.

It is not a case of people believing that they are "better than average" at math. They don't believe themselves to be superior.

They seem to be fully aware that they don't know much math. Yet they still imagine that they can find something
that has been missed by many, many experts. ...
Most people's view of mathematics is the arithmetic drilling they learn in school (whether directly or in the form of algebra, etc.). When they start, on their own, doing a little bit of something more like 'real' mathematics, they aren't aware that there exists centuries of experts doing the same thing before them. Just my hypothesis, anyway.
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Old 2015-04-06, 15:36   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman View Post
Perhaps it is just Dunning & Kruger: The inability to recognize (or acknowledge) true expertise in others.
I would point out that that effect is under the Cognitive tasks heading so it is part of it in either case.

Quote:
"illusory superiority" does not explain it. The phenomenon under discussion is different. Here, people who know that
they have not studied a technical subject (in this case math) believe that somehow they can make a contribution that
has been "missed" by many experts over centuries of time.
I went back to quote this maybe they think their brain acts differently than most people's if that's the case unless all things have been found in an area of study they could be correct in thinking this path may have not been taken, wither it leads to new results is up for debate I think.

Quote:
It is not a case of people believing that they are "better than average" at math. They don't believe themselves to be superior.
most people I know tend to suck at math compared to me so this is still possible.
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Old 2015-04-06, 16:05   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by science_man_88 View Post



most people I know tend to suck at math compared to me so this is still possible.
Huh? You are hopelessly incompetent at math, even at the pre high school level. This IS
an example of illusory superiority.
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Old 2015-04-06, 16:08   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blip View Post
I don't think people believe they found something altogether "new" in the first place. Often, they just found "something" and show it around, like kids, when they manage for the first time to build a tower out of bricks, or draw a house.
I don't think this is correct based upon:

"I'm just stating that this could be something that warrants further investigation towards something amounting to a proof (or a disproof). "

When someone states that what they found needs further investigation it STRONGLY suggest that they think they found
something new.
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