Is it Right to Club Bears?

[chappy]

Originally Posted by NBtarheel_33

and that all that blood is on this country's hands until we take a step to ensure it never happens again.

well said. regardless of all else, well said.

[Xyzzy]

http://news.yahoo.com/gun-lobby-ceo-...--finance.html

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by Xyzzy

http://news.yahoo.com/gun-lobby-ceo-...--finance.html

Flatly, unequivocally false - It took me all of 10 seconds to find this bit related to the 2011 Tucson shooting of congresswoman Gabby Giffords and multiple bystanders:

[gunman Travis] Loughner allegedly proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[2][20] The weapon used was reported to be a 9mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[21][22] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[23] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[24] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the 14th injury.[25] The gunman was then tackled to the ground by 74-year-old retired US Army Colonel Bill Badger,[26] who himself had been shot, and was further subdued by Maisch and bystanders Roger Sulzgeber and Joseph Zamudio. Zamudio was a CCW holder and had a weapon on his person, but arrived after the shooting had stopped and did not use the firearm to engage or threaten the gunman.[27]

Unfortunately, it's disinformation-spreading liars and chest-thumping morons like the above-quoted gun-lobby mouthpiece who buy off enough politicians to make sure nothing ever changes, except in the more-lethal direction.

[Uncwilly]

Originally Posted by Xyzzy

http://news.yahoo.com/gun-lobby-ceo-...--finance.html

About as predictable as this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2344870.html

[chappy]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

Flatly, unequivocally false - It took me all of 10 seconds to find this bit related to the 2011 Tucson shooting of congresswoman Gabby Giffords and multiple bystanders:

Unfortunately, it's disinformation-spreading liars and chest-thumping morons like the above-quoted gun-lobby mouthpiece who buy off enough politicians to make sure nothing ever changes, except in the more-lethal direction.

It's interesting that the article doesn't mention the fact that Joseph Zamudio, the CCW carrying bystander had run out of the store and had witnessed none of the shootings, and by his own testimony almost shot one of the people wrestling Laughner to the ground.

[kladner]

Originally Posted by Uncwilly

About as predictable as this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2344870.html

Aye yai yai!

[NBtarheel_33]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

The other irritating canard I've been hearing over the weekend from the apologists is "the real problem isn't guns, it's mental illness." As if other nations on earth which suffer drastically lower rates of gun violence are magically devoid of mental ills. No, the problem is again the "guns don't kill people, they just make it really easy to kill people" one - when a mentally ill or otherwise seriously deluded person has easy access to a weapon whose lethality allows them to inflict their sickness on many more people than they would be able to with a knife, baseball bat, automobile or even hunting-style firearm. In the U.S. that is coupled with the problem that when the entire nation is awash in firearms, someone stashing a half-dozen firearms at home or taking their mentally-troubled teenager to the local firing range attracts far less attention than it should.

It's that dirty R-word that no one wants to hear. Responsibility. If you have a child, mentally ill person, elderly person, disabled person, etc. living in your home, and you wish to own guns, you have a responsibility to keep the guns secure and away from those persons at all times. Moreover, you never take one of these persons to a shooting range, let alone encourage them to shoot a gun. There are reports that Nancy Lanza was trying to "connect" with her son (who was growing distant the older he got - gee, anyone see a sign of trouble there?) by letting him accompany her to the range and fire the guns. Gee, Mom, how about - oh, I don't know - connecting with your (known disturbed) boy over a game of Scrabble? There are also reports that for three days, Tuesday 12/11 through Thursday 12/13, Ms. Lanza was off in New Hampshire on vacation alone. OK, but then that raises the question - since she was shot in her bed as she slept the morning of Friday 12/14, what was the status of the guns while Adam was home alone? That's the kind of responsibility that needs codified into law with harsh penalties against the gun owner, or the gun owner's estate, for negligence.

Let's say that Adam Lanza had not been as highly functioning. Let's peg his IQ at 60. What would have happened to Mother/Mother's estate if she had been "connecting" with her son by giving him impromptu driving lessons, until one morning he decided that it might be fun to drive the car the wrong way down the interstate at 120 miles per hour? How about if she had been "connecting" with her son by teaching him how to light big bonfires in the back yard, and Adam got the bright (no pun intended) idea that the neighbor's house would make a "really pretty boom boom"? Why is the equivalent notion of turning him loose with firearms, when his *social* and perhaps even *knowledge of consequences of his actions* IQ is probably about 60, not a similarly legally codified offense?

Minor bug report - I think you meant "sparsely populated" in your talk of places like rural Maine.

Actually, both arguments work in a sense. I often cite the country's large population as a whole to those who argue that what works for Europe, Canada, or Australia - whether universal health care, gun control, or large social entitlement/welfare programs - ought to be a perfect fit for the United States, as well. On the other hand, you're right that the sparse population of many places - e.g. Maine - within the United States is also a good argument for the right to harm bears (which reminds me that we were informed of another good reason to own a gun in the North Woods: black bear invasions of your back yard!), and probably more in line with what I was trying to express in that "essay" of mine.

[NBtarheel_33]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

Reports are now coming out that Adam Lanza spent hours locked in the basement playing violent video games, such as Call of Duty. NY post article

And I have no doubt that this contributed negatively (no, not 100%, but a definite contribution) to his mental health. I saw another article (NY Post, as well, I believe) in which they interviewed a plumber that had worked at the house, and had seen Adam's "lair" in the basement. Basically, every violent video game that you could think of, no natural light source, and the walls peppered with posters of guns and militaria. Apparently, both Adam and his brother were walking encyclopedias of weapons knowledge, able to describe the minutiae of weapons that were made long before they were born, according to the plumber.

I think that it is also telling that Adam Lanza smashed his computer to bits (no pun intended) before the shooting. Perhaps something or someone he encountered on the Internet, or the loss of a particular game, drove him over the edge? I am hoping and praying that they are able to do forensic analysis on what they have, as that may provide the most detailed picture of what might have been going through his mind.

Incidentally, anyone see this interview with Adam Lanza's barber? After spouting off himself about his fantasies of killing Lanza, I'd say that his barber's license ought to be pulled and he ought to be closely watched himself. It is interesting to note that Mommy Dearest tended to keep a close leash on the boy. Might be that the initial plan was just to take out Mommy Dearest (there have been rumblings that she was getting ready to move the two of them to Washington state, ostensibly to put Little Boy Blue in a special institution there), but then once he had her blood on his hands (and nothing more to lose), he figured he'd experience what playing his video games for real might be like. The choice of venue could have stemmed from (1) easy pickings with a higher possible body count due to the element of surprise, or (2) some perceived slight at how he had been treated when he attended the school (and also the fact that the school psychologist had been working with the mother re: treatment options).

[NBtarheel_33]

Originally Posted by Xyzzy

Note: We are not taking a position with this link.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

The trick is that, IIRC, the state-issued ammo is to remain sealed and every round present and accounted for unless it is used for official purposes. Without checking the link, I believe too that there are certain age and mental fitness requirements for the weapon(s) to be issued.

[NBtarheel_33]

Originally Posted by bsquared

Sounds simple, sure, but think about it. How many schools do you know that have just one door? My daughters elementary school has 9 that I know of. One of the local high schools has 26. What kind of cost is associated with transforming each of these entryways into a bulletproof, double-locking, electronically fortified hatchway? Banks are built to be formidable and sturdy-looking. Schools are built to be welcoming and friendly. Complete transformation of millions of school entryways would cost trillions. And would-be murderers would just go in through a window or wait until recess.

A malevolent premeditated attacker has every advantage. You can't defend against them. Period. Prevention of said malevolent beings is the only way. And gun control won't solve anything either, IMO. There's no way that all guns will be banned, and malevolent people can still slaughter kids with semi-automatic or even with bolt-action guns. Maybe not as many, but that's splitting hairs.

I think the only cure to stuff like this is more help, support, treatment, etc. for mentally troubled people and their families/friends combined with, as Zeta-flux said, a significant effort to eliminate or curtail the glorification of the "violence culture", i.e. games, movies, etc, (including "news" channels!). Throw a trillion dollars toward those goals and I believe we'd see better results than a trillion thrown at school defense.

Yep, sadly, Sandy Hook Elementary had actually just this year installed a system just as I was describing. The gunman shot the hell out of it anyway. My sister, who used to work at the aforementioned bank, said that the glass is "bulletproof" probably to the extent of one or two bullets at a time, but stands no chance against tens of rounds from an assault weapon.

[NBtarheel_33]

Originally Posted by Zeta-Flux

(E.g. Can you honestly say that the Batman movies had no influence on the recent shooting at the theatre in Colorado?)

The whacko even took the time to dye his hair (the wrong color), booby trap his home, and come out and say "I am the Joker".