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Old 2011-12-26, 15:03   #1
Andi47
 
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Default poaching aliquot sequences...

Quote:
Originally Posted by unconnected View Post
And I release 889800 because someone else is works with it, have cracked c109 on line 1615 and continues.
This happens again and again - somebody has reserved an aliquot sequence, and when he/she wants to report his/her results to the DB, he/she finds out that somebody else has advanced even further.

Maybe the "poacher(s)" do(es)n't even do this deliberately - I guess he/she/they doesn't know about the efforts / coordination done heere on mersenneforum.

Can you please add a message to the aliquot sequence page of the DB? Maybe something like "Work on aliquot sequences in the range up to 1M is coordinated on mersenneforum <with link>. Please post your reservation there to avoid duplication of effort, if you want to work on one or more sequences in this range."?

Last fiddled with by Andi47 on 2011-12-26 at 15:04
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Old 2011-12-26, 15:17   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andi47 View Post
This happens again and again - somebody has reserved an aliquot sequence, and when he/she wants to report his/her results to the DB, he/she finds out that somebody else has advanced even further.

Maybe the "poacher(s)" do(es)n't even do this deliberately - I guess he/she/they doesn't know about the efforts / coordination done heere on mersenneforum.

Can you please add a message to the aliquot sequence page of the DB? Maybe something like "Work on aliquot sequences in the range up to 1M is coordinated on mersenneforum <with link>. Please post your reservation there to avoid duplication of effort, if you want to work on one or more sequences in this range."?
I think a locking of reserved elf files against downloading might help.
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Old 2011-12-26, 16:45   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andi47 View Post
Can you please add a message to the aliquot sequence page of the DB? Maybe something like "Work on aliquot sequences in the range up to 1M is coordinated on mersenneforum <with link>. Please post your reservation there to avoid duplication of effort, if you want to work on one or more sequences in this range."?
Why do you assume it is some _one_? There are several people running worker scripts against factordb, automatically factoring "smaller" composites. Some are specifically targeting aliquot sequences and respects the reservation threads here. Others are just factoring general composites.

Besides, just what exactly do _you_ (you, as in, the person who has reserved the sequence) lose by someone else "poaching" a sequence? It is not like you spend extra effort due to the poaching.

Last fiddled with by axn on 2011-12-26 at 16:46
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Old 2011-12-26, 17:23   #4
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Besides, just what exactly do _you_ (you, as in, the person who has reserved the sequence) lose by someone else "poaching" a sequence? It is not like you spend extra effort due to the poaching.
This time it has hit somebody else, but it already happened to me one or two times. And when I found out, that somebody else has advanced the sequence, which I had reserved, quite a bit more than me, it was some kind of loss: I could have used the cpu-week for something else if I had known before...
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Old 2011-12-26, 17:35   #5
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It is disappointing to find that someone with more "horsepower" has already done your sequence that has been running a big composite for a week. A note on the aliquot sequence page would be nice.

I do not like the idea of locking anything other than the composites and certificates that are specifically "issued" by the db. After all, the db is there to collect factors. Let's not turn any help away.

In the overall picture, the db should be the winner and I accept the occasional disappointment. But, I also safeguard my work a little, by normally not uploading factors for sequences until gnfs is working on a composite >=110 digits. Of course, that doesn't ensure no other work will be done, but the composite workers are still a little lower than that from what I can tell.
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Old 2011-12-27, 10:07   #6
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Default ...again

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Originally Posted by rajula View Post
Because someone else is also playing around with 344136 I will drop it. No fun in factoring numbers with my current very limited resources only to notice that the same factors have been submitted just before I am finished (a C116 this time)...

344136 is now c122 = 22 * 31 * 507809 * c114. (Someone with more than just one core might want to see how long that 22 lasts.)

I might return to aliquot sequences when I have enough resources to keep ahead of possible poachers (or other such).
The aliquot project is already loosing participants.

(and I don't think that this is due to bchaffins workers, since his workers frequently check the reservation threads (the main thread and the subproject threads) to avoid "poaching". And I also don't think that this special case has been caused by workers picking random composites, since the smallest composites are currently around c50. c116's should be rather save from random picks.)

Last fiddled with by Andi47 on 2011-12-27 at 10:09 Reason: typo
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Old 2011-12-27, 10:19   #7
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From looking at a few examples, poaching only seems to occur on sequences that have the downdriver (e.g. 4788 where someone poached some c13x composites) and sequences that are stable, such as the ones mentioned in this thread.
The best idea is probably never to upload your current status to the DB on these sequences, but upload up to a large composite that you have already done, so that poachers have to do more work than you do. For example, on my sequence 570280, the current status shows a c120 on line 869. In fact, I have already factored this and there is now another c120 on line 871.
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Old 2011-12-27, 10:40   #8
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Originally Posted by 10metreh View Post
The best idea is probably never to upload your current status to the DB on these sequences, but upload up to a large composite that you have already done, so that poachers have to do more work than you do. For example, on my sequence 570280, the current status shows a c120 on line 869. In fact, I have already factored this and there is now another c120 on line 871.
Quote:
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Besides, just what exactly do _you_ (you, as in, the person who has reserved the sequence) lose by someone else "poaching" a sequence? It is not like you spend extra effort due to the poaching.
I'll reiterate. If someone works parallely on a composite, you do not lose any effort. The reaction to this poaching has been less than rational -- there is nothing to be lost if you just keep on working on the sequence. Just periodically check if the db has advanced more than you -- in which case, just pick up the latest status and proceed from there.

At this point, my guess is that the person(s?) who does the poaching are not aware (either that or they don't care about it). Either way, the paranoia exhibited here is only going to harm ourselves -- the poacher seems to be least bit affected.

Sheesh!
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Old 2011-12-27, 13:34   #9
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Quote:
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I'll reiterate. If someone works parallely on a composite, you do not lose any effort. The reaction to this poaching has been less than rational
So you won't consider your effort wasted if you used e.g. ~a cpu-week on factoring a composite and it turns out that somebody else was faster? I do because I could have used the cpu-week for something else if I would have known that somebody else was already working on the composite...
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Old 2011-12-27, 13:54   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axn View Post
I'll reiterate. If someone works parallely on a composite, you do not lose any effort. The reaction to this poaching has been less than rational -- there is nothing to be lost if you just keep on working on the sequence. Just periodically check if the db has advanced more than you -- in which case, just pick up the latest status and proceed from there.
One does not lose any effort (as an individual), but it feels like it is wasted. The only reason for me for occasionally factor aliquot sequence composites (or Fermat numbers or anything else) is for "computational stamp collecting". When the target is only personal gratification, feelings (rational or not) do matter. When the feeling is better obtained by other methods, then the other methods win.
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Old 2011-12-27, 14:34   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajula View Post
One does not lose any effort (as an individual), but it feels like it is wasted. The only reason for me for occasionally factor aliquot sequence composites (or Fermat numbers or anything else) is for "computational stamp collecting". When the target is only personal gratification, feelings (rational or not) do matter. When the feeling is better obtained by other methods, then the other methods win.
I realize I was already shot down in considering locking reserved elf files , the reason I suggested it is if they are locked by some means nobody ( except maybe by admin password type stuff) can download a already reserved elf so that really unless you get to it by reserving it first you can't get at a reserved sequence and poach it from someone.
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