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 2013-11-30, 17:17 #67 f1pokerspeed   Jun 2012 2×53 Posts Despite gold and whatever other precious metals' uses are, the simple fact of the matter is: Considering that Bitcoin & other cryptocurrencies are floating on the market and have a huge market cap ($14.409bn from Blockchain.info Market Cap graph)), what is the true value of Bitcoin? In order for businesses to spring up and accept Bitcoin, there has to be some kind of stability in the market. Considering the price of BTC has increased sixfold in the past two months (Bitcoincharts - MtGox. BTC/USD X-rate), it is very unlikely that businesses are going to want to operate in this market with regard to the volatility of BTC at this current point in time. But, then again... businesses create stability! Therefore, how can anyone expect the market to settle down? After all, free markets REQUIRE both supply and demand to work. I am pretty confident the average person would decline to buy a$1,200 coin that they don't know much about - yet, could you make the same argument for a Krugerrand, or such similar 1 troy oz. gold coin? The value of gold has slumped substantially in the past year, so it wouldn't stand out as a surprise to me if people stopped buying so much gold. Either way, the key issue for BTC right now is that the market is more volatile than a psychopath on LSD - how can this be solved? Last fiddled with by f1pokerspeed on 2013-11-30 at 17:18 Reason: *two months
2013-11-30, 18:54   #68
xilman
Bamboozled!

"𒉺𒌌𒇷𒆷𒀭"
May 2003
Down not across

237228 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by chalsall This was not always true. The question was (alleged to have been) the driver of the development of the Archimedes' principle, after all.
Still isn't true.

Tungsten, which has only become available in reasonably pure form for a couple of centuries, has almost identical density to gold. Quite a few scams have been unearthed in which a gold-plated tungsten bar has been passed off as the real thing.

Gold is synthesizable, as is helium. In each case it is presently cheaper to mine it than make it.

A valuable physical property of gold, not shared by many others, is that it has precisely one stable isotope and a high atomic number. There are people who value that property.

2013-11-30, 19:40   #69
chalsall
If I May

"Chris Halsall"
Sep 2002

9,323 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by xilman In each case it is presently cheaper to mine it than make it.
Significantly! Many, many orders of magnitude!

2013-11-30, 21:29   #70
chalsall
If I May

"Chris Halsall"
Sep 2002

100100011010112 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by f1pokerspeed Either way, the key issue for BTC right now is that the market is more volatile than a psychopath on LSD - how can this be solved?
Absolutely. Spot on!

Just putting this out there for discussion (I have absolutely no formal economic training, so this might all be really stupid)... But, is there any reason the current value of BTC *has* to "crash"?

If enough "traditional", "respected" vendors start coming into the game and accept BTC at, let's say, ~ \$800 USD each, who's to say that will not become the considered current value. Or, there about -- it will of course fluctuate by the minute, just like every other non-linked currency.

Also, a complete (but possibly relevant) tangent...

I needed some "me time" last night, and picked up Neal Stephenson's REAMDE for an hour or so (he's been on "pause" for the last few weeks), and a thought struck me...

Has there been much comparisons between BitCoin and other currently existing virtual currencies discussed in the media "debate" on this. Although very differently implemented, I think this might be worth thinking about.

(Part of REAMDE's story line involves a virtual currency being used within (and without) a Massively Online Game. I don't play games myself, so I can't give exact references, but I know that there are several real-world MOGs which have had such currencies implemented for several years.)

 2013-12-01, 05:44 #71 E_tron     Sep 2002 Austin, TX 3·11·17 Posts I still think we should start handing out Mersenne Coins. We could force the GIMPS FFT or P-1 algorithm to make rare data digests to drive verifiable transactions in a cryptocurrency right? I think we ought to do this simply to drive lots of the squandered cryptocurrency horsepower our way. "Mine cyrptocurrency and discover rare prime numbers" will be the slogan. M100 here we come Attached Thumbnails
2013-12-01, 20:26   #73
Mini-Geek
Account Deleted

"Tim Sorbera"
Aug 2006
San Antonio, TX USA

17×251 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by E_tron I still think we should start handing out Mersenne Coins. We could force the GIMPS FFT or P-1 algorithm to make rare data digests to drive verifiable transactions in a cryptocurrency right? I think we ought to do this simply to drive lots of the squandered cryptocurrency horsepower our way. "Mine cyrptocurrency and discover rare prime numbers" will be the slogan. M100 here we come
Therein lies the problem. GIMPS work (except for factor found results) currently can only be verified (AFAIK) by rerunning it and comparing results. It's already far too easy to forge work and get credit for it. I shudder to think if instead of just worthless GHz-days credit, we started trying to attach value (Mersenne Coins) to that, without a reliable way to ignore forged results.

Last fiddled with by Mini-Geek on 2013-12-01 at 20:30

2013-12-01, 21:18   #74
f1pokerspeed

Jun 2012

10610 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mini-Geek Therein lies the problem. GIMPS work (except for factor found results) currently can only be verified (AFAIK) by rerunning it and comparing results.
What would be the problem with:

a) only giving coins for first-time LLs
b) only sending coins out if a valid unique DC is accepted?

2013-12-01, 22:22   #75
Mini-Geek
Account Deleted

"Tim Sorbera"
Aug 2006
San Antonio, TX USA

102538 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by f1pokerspeed What would be the problem with: a) only giving coins for first-time LLs b) only sending coins out if a valid unique DC is accepted?
a) is irrelevant.
b) is a problem because (assuming you allow any ol' user to submit a DC) someone could easily pretend that he is both UserA and UserB, come up with a fake residue and submit both the first-time and DC. He'd get coins for at least one of those. You could mitigate this to an extent, e.g. by banning users who are discovered doing this, or verifying user's true identities before allowing them to submit any results, or refusing results that weren't first assigned by PrimeNet (no more manual assignments either), or leaving DCing to a trusted set of people, but none of these are foolproof.

Last fiddled with by Mini-Geek on 2013-12-01 at 22:23

 2013-12-02, 02:29 #76 TheMawn     May 2013 East. Always East. 11×157 Posts The best we could do is hand out coins for finding the first factor of an exponent. These results are impossible to forge. The money handed out would have to reflect the bit depth. If it was one Mersenne Coin for a factor regardless of depth, we would have everything factored to 67 in about a week, which isn't all that helpful. EDIT: Not to mention leaving the work to trusted DC'ers puts a lot of weight on them, assuming we can even write up a list in the first place. We would have to be able to keep up with DC's very, very closely. Not remotely possible currently. A while ago, my all-time and 365-day DC ranking passed my LL ranking. I have 52 LL for 6900 GHz-Days (296th place of 2948) and 24 DC's for 855 GHz-Days (238th place of 1694). The current DC effort is disgusting compared to LL. We would have to make a list of trusted DC'ers who can keep up with LL's. I can't see that happening. Last fiddled with by TheMawn on 2013-12-02 at 02:45
2013-12-02, 02:37   #77
kracker
ἀβουλία

"Mr. Meeseeks"
Jan 2012
California, USA

1000011110012 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TheMawn The best we could do is hand out coins for finding the first factor of an exponent. These results are impossible to forge. The money handed out would have to reflect the bit depth. If it was one Mersenne Coin for a factor regardless of depth, we would have everything factored to 67 in about a week, which isn't all that helpful.
TF high ranges to high bits. Yay, it's over.

I don't think that would work. Well, I'm not for the idea at all anyways...