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Old 2013-11-30, 17:17   #67
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Despite gold and whatever other precious metals' uses are, the simple fact of the matter is:

Considering that Bitcoin & other cryptocurrencies are floating on the market and have a huge market cap ($14.409bn from Blockchain.info Market Cap graph)), what is the true value of Bitcoin?

In order for businesses to spring up and accept Bitcoin, there has to be some kind of stability in the market. Considering the price of BTC has increased sixfold in the past two months (Bitcoincharts - MtGox. BTC/USD X-rate), it is very unlikely that businesses are going to want to operate in this market with regard to the volatility of BTC at this current point in time. But, then again... businesses create stability!

Therefore, how can anyone expect the market to settle down? After all, free markets REQUIRE both supply and demand to work. I am pretty confident the average person would decline to buy a $1,200 coin that they don't know much about - yet, could you make the same argument for a Krugerrand, or such similar 1 troy oz. gold coin? The value of gold has slumped substantially in the past year, so it wouldn't stand out as a surprise to me if people stopped buying so much gold.

Either way, the key issue for BTC right now is that the market is more volatile than a psychopath on LSD - how can this be solved?

Last fiddled with by f1pokerspeed on 2013-11-30 at 17:18 Reason: *two months
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Old 2013-11-30, 18:54   #68
xilman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalsall View Post
This was not always true. The question was (alleged to have been) the driver of the development of the Archimedes' principle, after all.
Still isn't true.

Tungsten, which has only become available in reasonably pure form for a couple of centuries, has almost identical density to gold. Quite a few scams have been unearthed in which a gold-plated tungsten bar has been passed off as the real thing.

Gold is synthesizable, as is helium. In each case it is presently cheaper to mine it than make it.

A valuable physical property of gold, not shared by many others, is that it has precisely one stable isotope and a high atomic number. There are people who value that property.
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Old 2013-11-30, 19:40   #69
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In each case it is presently cheaper to mine it than make it.
Significantly! Many, many orders of magnitude!
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Old 2013-11-30, 21:29   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f1pokerspeed View Post
Either way, the key issue for BTC right now is that the market is more volatile than a psychopath on LSD - how can this be solved?
Absolutely. Spot on!

Just putting this out there for discussion (I have absolutely no formal economic training, so this might all be really stupid)... But, is there any reason the current value of BTC *has* to "crash"?

If enough "traditional", "respected" vendors start coming into the game and accept BTC at, let's say, ~ $800 USD each, who's to say that will not become the considered current value. Or, there about -- it will of course fluctuate by the minute, just like every other non-linked currency.

Also, a complete (but possibly relevant) tangent...

I needed some "me time" last night, and picked up Neal Stephenson's REAMDE for an hour or so (he's been on "pause" for the last few weeks), and a thought struck me...

Has there been much comparisons between BitCoin and other currently existing virtual currencies discussed in the media "debate" on this. Although very differently implemented, I think this might be worth thinking about.

(Part of REAMDE's story line involves a virtual currency being used within (and without) a Massively Online Game. I don't play games myself, so I can't give exact references, but I know that there are several real-world MOGs which have had such currencies implemented for several years.)
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Old 2013-12-01, 05:44   #71
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I still think we should start handing out Mersenne Coins.

We could force the GIMPS FFT or P-1 algorithm to make rare data digests to drive verifiable transactions in a cryptocurrency right?

I think we ought to do this simply to drive lots of the squandered cryptocurrency horsepower our way. "Mine cyrptocurrency and discover rare prime numbers" will be the slogan. M100 here we come
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Old 2013-12-01, 13:04   #72
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Count me in for that, I would move all my mining rigs to here.

Why not? All the code is public, need only few illuminated heads, and some work. More work would be to read the lots of the "alt-coin" forums, to avoid repeating their mistakes (This is very important, otherwise you are doomed to fail from the start!). There are lots of illuminated minds there too, and they criticize (objectively!) all the mistakes which were done by the openers of the respective alt-coin. Here would be a good start to read about premining, too low initial difficulty, not going public (i.e. keeping the coin not so public until it was enough mined by friends, relatives, etc). It should use scrypt-jane or something like that, to be only cpu/gpu friendly, (there will be ASICs for pure scrypt in the next 2-3 years, it is not a big deal to add memory to asics), it should do periodic permutations and random calculus check (to avoid dedicated hardware, i.e. only hardware in which general calculus is possible, like a processor), it should be previously advertized (i.e. do not go public, unless making sure enough people will know about the release date), it should have no premined coins, start with a relative high initial difficulty, etc. From the economic point of view, there should be discussed if it is deflating or inflating (like, is the qty limited? do you pay demurrage for having it, or you are paid interest if you keep it in the account, etc) and few other topics (I can make a list ). And instead of getting it for mining, you get it for crunching mersenne numbers... (or mixed somehow, I already have few ideas in my head, but don't know if they worth mentioned, hehe)...

edit 2: (I didn't visit that list linked above, for a long-long time, I took the link from the bookmark, but now I clicked it): You have to look to XPM Primecoin. If we don't move fast, someone else will do it hehe... Some comment from the thread, about XPM: "a coin which at least produces something is much better than bitcoin" hehe

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-12-01 at 13:27 Reason: forgot the link
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Old 2013-12-01, 20:26   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E_tron View Post
I still think we should start handing out Mersenne Coins.

We could force the GIMPS FFT or P-1 algorithm to make rare data digests to drive verifiable transactions in a cryptocurrency right?

I think we ought to do this simply to drive lots of the squandered cryptocurrency horsepower our way. "Mine cyrptocurrency and discover rare prime numbers" will be the slogan. M100 here we come
Therein lies the problem. GIMPS work (except for factor found results) currently can only be verified (AFAIK) by rerunning it and comparing results. It's already far too easy to forge work and get credit for it. I shudder to think if instead of just worthless GHz-days credit, we started trying to attach value (Mersenne Coins) to that, without a reliable way to ignore forged results.

Last fiddled with by Mini-Geek on 2013-12-01 at 20:30
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Old 2013-12-01, 21:18   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini-Geek View Post
Therein lies the problem. GIMPS work (except for factor found results) currently can only be verified (AFAIK) by rerunning it and comparing results.
What would be the problem with:

a) only giving coins for first-time LLs
b) only sending coins out if a valid unique DC is accepted?
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Old 2013-12-01, 22:22   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f1pokerspeed View Post
What would be the problem with:

a) only giving coins for first-time LLs
b) only sending coins out if a valid unique DC is accepted?
a) is irrelevant.
b) is a problem because (assuming you allow any ol' user to submit a DC) someone could easily pretend that he is both UserA and UserB, come up with a fake residue and submit both the first-time and DC. He'd get coins for at least one of those. You could mitigate this to an extent, e.g. by banning users who are discovered doing this, or verifying user's true identities before allowing them to submit any results, or refusing results that weren't first assigned by PrimeNet (no more manual assignments either), or leaving DCing to a trusted set of people, but none of these are foolproof.

Last fiddled with by Mini-Geek on 2013-12-01 at 22:23
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Old 2013-12-02, 02:29   #76
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The best we could do is hand out coins for finding the first factor of an exponent. These results are impossible to forge.

The money handed out would have to reflect the bit depth. If it was one Mersenne Coin for a factor regardless of depth, we would have everything factored to 67 in about a week, which isn't all that helpful.


EDIT: Not to mention leaving the work to trusted DC'ers puts a lot of weight on them, assuming we can even write up a list in the first place. We would have to be able to keep up with DC's very, very closely. Not remotely possible currently. A while ago, my all-time and 365-day DC ranking passed my LL ranking. I have 52 LL for 6900 GHz-Days (296th place of 2948) and 24 DC's for 855 GHz-Days (238th place of 1694). The current DC effort is disgusting compared to LL. We would have to make a list of trusted DC'ers who can keep up with LL's. I can't see that happening.

Last fiddled with by TheMawn on 2013-12-02 at 02:45
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Old 2013-12-02, 02:37   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMawn View Post
The best we could do is hand out coins for finding the first factor of an exponent. These results are impossible to forge.

The money handed out would have to reflect the bit depth. If it was one Mersenne Coin for a factor regardless of depth, we would have everything factored to 67 in about a week, which isn't all that helpful.
TF high ranges to high bits. Yay, it's over.

I don't think that would work. Well, I'm not for the idea at all anyways...
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