Full faith and credit and showdownarama 2013

only_human · 2013-09-29, 22:32

Welcome present and returning forumites to high stakes drama DC style. The world's popcorn supply is at risk.

only_human · 2013-09-30, 00:42

OK, some dates:

October 1st: the US government goes through some kind of shutdown if no budget or continuing resolution (CR) is passed (budgets are not being considered at this time).

October 17th: is the estimated date that the government is unable to make payments on outstanding bonds obligations without being granted additional borrowing authority (debt-ceiling): The "Full Faith and Credit" of the USA will be compromised. This is considered to be a very dangerous default.

(Current squabbles differ on the date for the next round of CR battles because the Senate wants an earlier date to bargain about sequestration cuts.)

November 15th: If sometime soon, the House passes a CR from the Senate, this is next CR/shutdown date.

December 15th: If instead sometime soon the Senate passes a CR from the House, this will be the next CR/shutdown date.

Some people think that a debt ceiling itself is unconstitutional due to full faith and credit wording in the Constitution. Another pondered position is that the Treasury could mint very high denomination gold coins, place them in a vault and borrow upon them (circumventing Congressional power).

Fusion_power · 2013-09-30, 02:58

I say shut it down. The best thing that could happen now is for the whole clustermuck to come to a head. Republicans are as leaderless as I've ever seen them. Democrats are saying no way Hosea. Shut it down for a few weeks and lets see who gets voted out of office in 2014. I'm betting it will be very bad news for some embedded republicans and democrats too. This thing of playing chicken to see who blinks first has NOTHING to do with governing and everything to do with childish "I'm going to get my way no matter who I have to kill" attitude.

CRGreathouse · 2013-09-30, 03:06

Hmm. I don't mind a shutdown, if that's the only way for this to be resolved, but I'd like to keep this whole "full faith and credit thing" if at all possible. Maybe the warring camps could find a way to get at least that?

only_human · 2013-09-30, 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Hmm. I don't mind a shutdown, if that's the only way for this to be resolved, but I'd like to keep this whole "full faith and credit thing" if at all possible. Maybe the warring camps could find a way to get at least that?

I'm with you 110%. I'm hoping that a short shutdown will create a climate that makes a straightforward debt ceiling procedure doable. There are two possibilities: raise the limit, or suspend the ceiling for a while; both have been done in recent times. Unfortunately some guys are getting all Blagojevich-ish i.e. “I've got this thing and it's f'n golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for f'n nothing. I'm not gonna do it. And, and I can always use it..."

cheesehead · 2013-09-30, 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by only_human

There are two possibilities: raise the limit, or suspend the ceiling for a while; both have been done in recent times.

I wasn't aware that the ceiling had ever been suspended for a while. Would that have been equivalent to a temporary increase, with a fixed date set for it to return to the previous level?

only_human · 2013-09-30, 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesehead

I wasn't aware that the ceiling had ever been suspended for a while. Would that have been equivalent to a temporary increase, with a fixed date set for it to return to the previous level?

(Welcome back)
It's easy to lose track of all the different things that have been done because this merry-go-round has been running so long. Here are the suspension details:
Debt ceiling suspension [Wikipedia.com]

Quote:

On February 4, 2013, President Obama signed into law the "No Budget, No Pay Act of 2013", which suspended the U.S. debt ceiling through May 18, 2013. The bill was passed in the Senate one week previously by a vote of 64-34, with all no votes from Republican senators,[10] who were critical of the lack of spending cuts that accompanied an increase in the limit. In the House, the bill passed the week before by a vote of 285-144,[11] with both parties voting in favor.[12] In the House a provision was attached by Republican representatives that mandates the temporary withholding of pay to members of Congress if they do not produce a budget plan by April 15. Pay would be reinstated once a budget was passed or on January 2, 2015, whichever came first.[13] Under the law, the debt ceiling would be set on May 19, 2013 to a level "necessary to fund commitment incurred by the Federal Government that required payment."[12]

jasonp · 2013-09-30, 13:02

We have many many friends and neighbors who will be affected adversely by a government shutdown; it would be tantamount to a furlough for an entire geographic region. Think for a minute about what that would look like where you lived, and ask yourself if you really want a situation where your entire block suddenly stopped getting paid, on general principle.

I loved how local news interviewed outraged people at the airport when sequestration made a mess of air traffic control. "What, government cutbacks actually affect me?!"

Oh, and remember all the schadenfreude around here about Greece? That was my family too.

R.D. Silverman · 2013-09-30, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonp

We have many many friends and neighbors who will be affected adversely by a government shutdown; it would be tantamount to a furlough for an entire geographic region. Think for a minute about what that would look like where you lived, and ask yourself if you really want a situation where your entire block suddenly stopped getting paid, on general principle.

I loved how local news interviewed outraged people at the airport when sequestration made a mess of air traffic control. "What, government cutbacks actually affect me?!"

Oh, and remember all the schadenfreude around here about Greece? That was my family too.

The Republicans are being driven by the Tea Party.

These people are Libertarian Anarchists. They do not want any government
at all. Their base principle is: I own it, therefore I make the rules and can
do whatever I want.

And they care for noone but themselves.

CRGreathouse · 2013-09-30, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman

The Republicans are being driven by the Tea Party.

Hardly. The Tea Party is a small fraction of Republicans, and not even a particularly influential one at that.

R.D. Silverman · 2013-09-30, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRGreathouse

Hardly. The Tea Party is a small fraction of Republicans, and not even a particularly influential one at that.

I disagree. They have a great deal of influence. And the rest of the party
is following them like sheep.

2013-09-29, 22:32	#1
only_human "Gang aft agley" Sep 2002 5×751 Posts	Full faith and credit and showdownarama 2013 Welcome present and returning forumites to high stakes drama DC style. The world's popcorn supply is at risk. Last fiddled with by only_human on 2013-09-29 at 22:55 Reason: added smilies

2013-09-30, 00:42	#2
only_human "Gang aft agley" Sep 2002 5·751 Posts	OK, some dates: October 1st: the US government goes through some kind of shutdown if no budget or continuing resolution (CR) is passed (budgets are not being considered at this time). October 17th: is the estimated date that the government is unable to make payments on outstanding bonds obligations without being granted additional borrowing authority (debt-ceiling): The "Full Faith and Credit" of the USA will be compromised. This is considered to be a very dangerous default. (Current squabbles differ on the date for the next round of CR battles because the Senate wants an earlier date to bargain about sequestration cuts.) November 15th: If sometime soon, the House passes a CR from the Senate, this is next CR/shutdown date. December 15th: If instead sometime soon the Senate passes a CR from the House, this will be the next CR/shutdown date. Some people think that a debt ceiling itself is unconstitutional due to full faith and credit wording in the Constitution. Another pondered position is that the Treasury could mint very high denomination gold coins, place them in a vault and borrow upon them (circumventing Congressional power). Last fiddled with by only_human on 2013-09-30 at 00:50 Reason: capitilization

2013-09-30, 02:58	#3
Fusion_power Aug 2003 Snicker, AL 1111000000₂ Posts	I say shut it down. The best thing that could happen now is for the whole clustermuck to come to a head. Republicans are as leaderless as I've ever seen them. Democrats are saying no way Hosea. Shut it down for a few weeks and lets see who gets voted out of office in 2014. I'm betting it will be very bad news for some embedded republicans and democrats too. This thing of playing chicken to see who blinks first has NOTHING to do with governing and everything to do with childish "I'm going to get my way no matter who I have to kill" attitude. Last fiddled with by Fusion_power on 2013-09-30 at 03:00

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2013-09-30, 03:06	#4
CRGreathouse Aug 2006 13544₈ Posts	Hmm. I don't mind a shutdown, if that's the only way for this to be resolved, but I'd like to keep this whole "full faith and credit thing" if at all possible. Maybe the warring camps could find a way to get at least that?

2013-09-30, 13:02	#8
jasonp Tribal Bullet Oct 2004 110111111010₂ Posts	We have many many friends and neighbors who will be affected adversely by a government shutdown; it would be tantamount to a furlough for an entire geographic region. Think for a minute about what that would look like where you lived, and ask yourself if you really want a situation where your entire block suddenly stopped getting paid, on general principle. I loved how local news interviewed outraged people at the airport when sequestration made a mess of air traffic control. "What, government cutbacks actually affect me?!" Oh, and remember all the schadenfreude around here about Greece? That was my family too.