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Old 2010-09-23, 11:14   #1
Flatlander
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Default Electric cars - making things worse?

What do you think of this guy's reasoning?
The electric car joke
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Old 2010-09-23, 11:47   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
What do you think of this guy's reasoning?
The electric car joke
He seems to have totally ignored solar, nuclear and other non-fossil fuel energy generation sources.
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Old 2010-09-23, 11:59   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retina View Post
He seems to have totally ignored solar, nuclear and other non-fossil fuel energy generation sources.
not to mention he says no leak in power etc. but not all people turn off the engine immediately or if they stop real quick to pick something up, so in a way you lose fuel and the no range issue is false as a gas car doesn't have unlimited range either.

Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2010-09-23 at 12:00
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Old 2010-09-23, 12:53   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
What do you think of this guy's reasoning?
The electric car joke
I think there is decent logic behind his reasoning, presuming that natural gas or coal is used to generate the electricity used in the electric cars. In the US 45.9% of the electricity is generated from coal and 21.8% from natural gas (source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electri...m/epm_sum.html).

The use of electric cars moves the creation of pollution from the vehicle to the plant. The presumption is that you can more easily control the pollution from the single source (the power plant) than from the many (the cars). If the coal plant burns high sulfur coal and has no scrubbers (many don't and have grandfather clauses, care of our government, to not require them), it could make the pollution problem worse.
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Old 2010-09-23, 16:05   #5
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Wikipedia says, "Typical thermal efficiency for electrical generators in the industry is around 33% for coal and oil-fired plants, and up to 50% for combined-cycle gas-fired plants.", emphasis mine. I've seen figures of 55% for some existing European gas power plants (in Ireland, I believe), and theoretical figures of 60% or more. That's not counting places with a Renewable Energy Standard which means some percentage of all power is produced by wind or solar.

Also, he talks about lead-acid batteries! Nobody's using anything less than NiMH, and most are using lithium. High discharge rates are a problem that should be fixed with an ultracapacitor. This would also help regenerative braking, which he doesn't even mention! Long-term leakage costs can be offset if parked cars can feed power back into the grid at peak demand.

And finally, he completely neglects the problem of Peak Oil. Someday we won't be able to (afford to) burn fossil gasoline in our cars.
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Old 2010-09-23, 20:31   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
What do you think of this guy's reasoning?
When we follow his link to "Also see WHY we don't cause global warming, although it is happening obviously!"
at http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/climate-change.htm we find out why there're so many gaps in his reasoning: his modesty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgerman
I have a high IQ and I run on pure science and logic. To me things are either: proven, likely if they have "some valid supporting evidence" and merit further research. Or they are like a religion. A belief system.
If that's not enough explanation for you, he expounds further on his "About Me." page:

Quote:
. . .

A few original scratch built things
that later came out of my head Include the following (but is not limited to) Small Gas Turbine jet engines for my model aircraft, Pulse-Jet engines, Automotive Nitrous Injection Systems, Water Cooled Computers, Automotive Chassis Dynamometer systems including the Software and data capture equipment. ...To name fraction of my previous engineering endeavours.

. . .


And I never do anything by halves. As the wheelchair builds on these pages will show you. Bodge work? Not here. All logic and perfection, To me beauty is in engineering design and that is its elegance. If its built right it looks right too.

I took everything apart as a kid.
Everything. I still do. It has more value and you have more control if you have the knowledge and understanding of how it and all the other things around you work. And often you can improve on it. I am a control freak and knowing what makes everything tick gives me that control. I don't feel comfortable or in control for example if I don't know every nut and bolt of how my powerchair or electric bed works! It means I can remedy the situation when required without any panic or problems. I do not have to rely on any so called "experts" that seldom turn out to have much of a clue.
"I am a control freak and knowing what makes everything tick gives me that control. ... I do not have to rely on any so called "experts" that seldom turn out to have much of a clue."

There, that tells you that he's not going to believe any "climatologist". If it isn't measurable on his own custom-built gasoline-powered weather station, then it's not reliable enough for him.

(Speaking of which, did you notice how he ridicules electric cars, but treats electric wheelchairs as perfectly normal? Where's his custom-built gas-powered wheelchair? And, why do "... ALL Powerchairs NEED to be Off Road Capable! ?)

What do you want to bet that he does his own dentistry?

Quote:
As such engineering and physics just come completely naturally to me.
He doesn't need any book learning. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_g6 View Post
And finally, he completely neglects the problem of Peak Oil.
As Burgerman would tell you if he were here in person: "Peak is an antifreeze, not an oil! It's a solution, not a problem!"




Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2010-09-23 at 20:42
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Old 2010-09-23, 20:38   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_g6 View Post
Typical thermal efficiency for electrical generators in the industry is around 33% for coal and oil-fired plants, and up to 50% for combined-cycle gas-fired plants."
I have worked at a plant that ran gas turbine generators and waste heat boilers, the steam of which was produced was used elsewhere and ran up to 2 stages of steam turbine generators, a high pressure and a low pressure (like the old steam engine trains). Having these combined cycle systems is common.
Quote:
That's not counting places with a Renewable Energy Standard which means some percentage of all power is produced by wind or solar.
What about sources like biogas (gas from sewerage plants and landfills) and biomass (sawdust, rice hulls, dried mash, cane stalks, etc.) and waste-to-energy plants (burning trash)? All of those sources are very hard to burn clean (joule to metric ton of CO2 ratio and other polutants) in a portable system.
Quote:
This would also help regenerative braking, which he doesn't even mention! Long-term leakage costs can be offset if parked cars can feed power back into the grid at peak demand.
Regenerative braking is very vital to the overall efficience of the E-cars. The last 15% of capacity it a gas fired power plant is the least effcient. Also "peaker" plants tend to be smaller, dirtier to run, and less efficient. And while the battery pack for an e-car maybe a large fraction of its weight, they are be no means twice the weight of a petrol burner.

Further, the e-car should be part of a range options. The developement of increased efficiencies in the drive train and the vehicle in general (there is a US based group working on a carbon fibre sedan) are being spurred by the e-car.
The spectrum of vehicles may like this:
  • bicycle
  • electro-boosted bicycle
  • electro motorbike (they are out there, quite zippy)
  • other motorbikes of all sorts
  • small electro "car" (the golf cart like "city" cars)
  • e-car (the options upto this point should handle 90+% of consumer trips or km)
    (a solar option on top of this could range extend or provide a little self-recharge while sitting in the car park, making longer commutes possible)
  • fuel cell vehicles (This could be a common base platform with the e-car, like GM's Hy Wire. This is where current work on e-cars can also pay-off)
  • plug-in hybrids (ideally couple with a home solar system. This would be the one vehicle that would serve 100% of the needs of the average driver; both the daily commute and the weekend 400+km trip)
  • hybrids (of all sorts, like clean desiel (with "P-traps) over electric autos, UPS's hydraulic hybrids, yard tractors, trains, and not the least pick-ups used at job sites
  • alternate fuel vehicles (hydrogen, CNG, {I would not advocate LNG systems, unless the leakge loss is better addressed}, compressed gas/liquid cars, propane, bio-derived fuels {again, not a fan of the maize ethanol})
  • petrol powered road vehicles
  • electric trains
  • petrol trains
  • clean burning water craft
  • airplanes
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Old 2010-09-23, 20:50   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesehead View Post
If that's not enough explanation for you, he expounds further on his "About Me." page:
Maybe we should let him know about water injection too. That would boost his horsepower.
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Old 2010-09-23, 21:03   #9
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how many gallons fuel burn't if they burn the same compare the mileage you get an equating to mpg for each. if your average electric gets lower equivalent mpg to the average gasoline car then he has merit if no throw him out.
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Old 2010-09-23, 21:13   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/electric-car.htm
So you lose yet another third of that 24 percent that we had left even if you charge it slowly...

We now actually have about 18 percent of the original fossil fuels energy left that the power station consumed sat in the batteries after charging. Whew!!
I love how he doesn't know 1/3*24 = 8 and 24-8 = 16 not 18 the fact that he can't do the math shows he isn't a worthy person to put down he puts himself down.
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Old 2010-09-23, 21:14   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by science_man_88 View Post
how many gallons fuel burn't if they burn the same compare the mileage you get an equating to mpg for each. if your average electric gets lower equivalent mpg to the average gasoline car then he has merit if no throw him out.
Based upon this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_p...#Well-to-wheel the Tesla roadster gets 57.7 MPGe
or better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_R...ent_efficiency

http://gas2.org/2010/06/07/german-au...ropean-market/

Last fiddled with by Uncwilly on 2010-09-23 at 21:59 Reason: floor-matting
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