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Old 2014-05-12, 23:33   #155
TheMawn
 
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Five minutes ago mersenne.org was dead (again, still, or whatever) but I've managed to log in after reading the last dozen or so posts. Either I was at the tail end of things are still a bit choppy.


I don't know the first thing about servers but I'd be quite happy to chip in a bit of money for an upgrade if it is time.

Out of curiosity, how large is the GIMPS database? I've got to imagine that the data on 51 million numbers takes up a LOT of space.


EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime95 View Post
The firewall has been updated and I've rebooted.
Ah..

Last fiddled with by TheMawn on 2014-05-12 at 23:34
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Old 2014-05-12, 23:38   #156
Prime95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NBtarheel_33 View Post
When might it be worthwhile for us participants to start chipping in towards a new server, a rented server, or even cloud services for this project to which we all enjoy contributing and wish to see flourish for years to come?
Money is not the issue.

Scott handles all the server stuff as I have no expertise in this area. Scott's experience is with MS products.

It may be time to start thinking about the next version of Primenet.
This would be a tremendous amount of work.

Questions include -- I'm sure there are others:
1) Own the hardware or rent it (and from which ISP)?
2) What are the hardware requirements and cost for owning or renting?
3) How much bandwidth do we need?
4) Linux (or similar) or Windows?
5) Which database?
6) Backup procedures (and/or database replication).
7) If not Windows/SQLServer, timeline for rewriting and testing all the server side PHP code.
8) Who is available to do all the required work?
9) How do we migrate the several GB of data to the new setup?
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Old 2014-05-13, 04:52   #157
petrw1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime95 View Post
I've just moved to the N.C. mountains for the Summer and just got cable installed.
First time or your regular Summer home?
Living in Florida seems like a year round Summer to me.
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Old 2014-05-13, 05:24   #158
James Heinrich
 
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Questions that I have an opinion on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime95 View Post
4) Linux (or similar) or Windows?
5) Which database?
9) How do we migrate the several GB of data to the new setup?
4) Not-Windows. I have no opinion of which Linux-like OS is selected, but I have a strong dislike for Windows for hosting.
5) Not-Microsoft. I (and I'm sure many people) have experience with MySQL.
9) I'm not sure how big the PrimeNet database is; mersenne.ca database is about 14GB of data (21GB with indexes) across 500 million records and I have no problems backing it up, exporting, and restoring the database to my local development machine every few months. Takes an hour or so for each of export and import, but that's to be expected. Exporting from MS-SQL to MySQL or whatever is selected as the new database should be reasonably straightforward as well; if no specific tools exist for that a simple PHP script could read/write from old to new.
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Old 2014-05-13, 11:28   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime95 View Post
Questions include -- I'm sure there are others:
1) Own the hardware or rent it (and from which ISP)?
2) What are the hardware requirements and cost for owning or renting?
3) How much bandwidth do we need?
4) Linux (or similar) or Windows?
5) Which database?
6) Backup procedures (and/or database replication).
7) If not Windows/SQLServer, timeline for rewriting and testing all the server side PHP code.
8) Who is available to do all the required work?
9) How do we migrate the several GB of data to the new setup?
I have become proficient on cloud servers. They offer lower prices for managed hardware, backup, redundancy and fail-safe / load-balancing operations. You can define an external storage and attach / detach / backup it at will. There is also a possibility to have the whole server automatically backed up in a timely manner.

The main issue is on network outbound traffic, but again it can be carefully estimated, it is possible to add bandwidth on the fly if needed if a new Mersenne prime is discovered.

They offer both Micro$oft and Centos OSes, the latter being cheaper.

On Linux environment, I suppose MySQL EE may offer speed and easy management, including stored procedures.

The server-side PHP scripts should work fine on both environments, once the SQL statements were standard: on a development point of view, we may build an abstraction layer to isolate the database engine calls and make the PHP code more versatile and optimized.

As James pointed out, we only need to setup a group of QA tests to check that everything ran smooth, and backup / restore the system once. We might run the backup and optimization tasks offline, and add and test new features.

We may choose either PaaS or IaaS: the first offering preconfigrued virtual machine snapshots created, optimized and tested offline after cloning the actual servers, the second creating the whole infrastructure having specialized servers, a private network inside the cloud and an elastic IP to connect to the Internet.

Who will take care of the migration and the management of it?
It depends. First of all, we need a detailed task list including each migration / optimization / development step. It can be done overtime, and each task discussed on a dedicated thread.
Once the tasks ar defined, we may look for a human responsible for each task: if we find enough people helping with it, we will proceed to the following step.

I just elaborated upon George's list; I don't want to show preference towards cloud services instead of private/ISP managed ones. As I already did such an analysis for a startup last month, I added my two cents to the discussion.

I'm of course ready to tax myself for the project, and help in any fields where my knowledge can help.

Luigi
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Old 2014-05-13, 18:11   #160
chalsall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET_ View Post
I have become proficient on cloud servers. They offer lower prices for managed hardware, backup, redundancy and fail-safe / load-balancing operations. You can define an external storage and attach / detach / backup it at will. There is also a possibility to have the whole server automatically backed up in a timely manner.

The main issue is on network outbound traffic, but again it can be carefully estimated, it is possible to add bandwidth on the fly if needed if a new Mersenne prime is discovered.
I will counter with my personal preference for co-located hosting: 1&1.

Yeah, I know 1&1 are often disparaged, but I rent three of their dedicated server (one for over eight years) and they are *highly* reliable. Only once did I have an outage, and it lasted all of six hours (and it was because of a DDOS).

Unlimited bandwidth with a 100 Mb/s connection in or out. And it's hard to beat $40 USD a month. (So you all know, GPU72 runs on a L2 -- MySQL database size is 6.4 GBs with indexes.)

And to reflect on James' comments, my personal preference would also be no M$. We should be past using expensive crapware. Like, yesteryear....
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Old 2014-05-13, 18:12   #161
kracker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalsall View Post
And to reflect on James' comments, my personal preference would also be no M$. We should be past using expensive crapware. Like, yesteryear....
Is that the general opinion or your opinion?
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Old 2014-05-13, 18:30   #162
chalsall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kracker View Post
Is that the general opinion or your opinion?
My opinion, of course,

But also the general opinion of those who actually run real sites -- read the second paragraph of the "Microsoft threatening Apache's market lead" section of the May 2014 Web Server Survey. Then, look at the graph further down.

Friends don't let friends run M$ crapware for public-facing websites....

Last fiddled with by chalsall on 2014-05-13 at 18:31 Reason: Smiling mistake....
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Old 2014-05-13, 18:31   #163
ET_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalsall View Post
I will counter with my personal preference for co-located hosting: 1&1.

Yeah, I know 1&1 are often disparaged, but I rent three of their dedicated server (one for over eight years) and they are *highly* reliable. Only once did I have an outage, and it lasted all of six hours (and it was because of a DDOS).

Unlimited bandwidth with a 100 Mb/s connection in or out. And it's hard to beat $40 USD a month. (So you all know, GPU72 runs on a L2 -- MySQL database size is 6.4 GBs with indexes.)

And to reflect on James' comments, my personal preference would also be no M$. We should be past using expensive crapware. Like, yesteryear....
I'm afraid that, even keeping the server and the database on one machine with Linux, 2 cores and 2MB of space would not be enough, nor scalable, but, as I said before, the choice is a matter of the ruler. On Amazon you get the following (prices are for Italy/Europe, US customer get a better rate):

Code:
Linux on m1.large: 2 virtual cores, 4 ECU (general purpose system), 7.5 GB, 2x420GB local
storage, moderate I/O capability.
Cloud storage: 400 GB, 100 IOPS.
Elastic IP: 1 elastic IP (free).
Data Transfer: 1TB/month inbound, 1TB/month outbound through elastic IP.
Elastic load balancing: 1 for 1TB/month
with a bit more than $200 per month or just $64 per month just for the server.

1&1 is known in Italy as a web-design service dealer, so I can't rely on this piece of information, and assume you are correct. My assumption is that the burden is put on the organization of the project, not on the costs.

Luigi

Last fiddled with by ET_ on 2014-05-13 at 18:34
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Old 2014-05-13, 18:53   #164
chalsall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET_ View Post
1&1 is known in Italy as a web-design service dealer, so I can't rely on this piece of information, and assume you are correct. My assumption is that the burden is put on the organization of the project, not on the costs.
Please don't read me wrong -- Amazon EC2 is great when you need to quickly spin up a few big servers for a quick job. I use them myself.

But for an "always on" dedicated server with steady bandwidth needs, I have found 1&1 to be the best and least expensive option (rarely do both metrics converge on one provider).

And, yes, 1&1 tends to target the consumer level more than the serious user. And never use them as an outgoing e-mail relay -- they are in just about every black-list which exists.

But, importantly, their dedicated co-located server department appears to be quite independent from their "consumer level" services -- separate support numbers, available 24/7.

Lastly, as you alluded to -- this is simply my suggestion based on experience. Someone else (read: George) will make the decision for GIMPS.
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Old 2014-05-13, 20:14   #165
Prime95
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For co-located servers, how easy is it to upgrade hardware as needed? In an ideal world, I'd login in to my account, select the i-need-a-better-server-with-these-features and my old system is stopped, the image copied over, and the new server started.
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