mersenneforum.org  

Go Back   mersenneforum.org > New To GIMPS? Start Here! > Information & Answers

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-01-29, 03:41   #23
Jorge
 
Jan 2013

32 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyzzy View Post

SNIP


FWIW, any error or warning is unacceptable to us, so we would not rest until the issue was resolved. And we would explore every possible angle to simplify the challenge.

My goal is to find an answer, but introducing an O/S that I won't be using isn't the best means to see if the issue exists under Windoze. I will continue until I do find the answer as I haven't had a PC that wouldn't Prime for 24 hours straight in the 20 years I have been building AMD and Intel powered PCs professionally.

Last fiddled with by Jorge on 2013-01-29 at 03:53
Jorge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-29, 03:56   #24
Xyzzy
 
Xyzzy's Avatar
 
"Mike"
Aug 2002

24×499 Posts
Default

Two other thoughts:

1 - Remove all items from the computer that are not necessary. Disable all on-board devices. All you need is video output of some sort. Start simple, hopefully pass the test and then add things in one by one. If you can get by with one stick of memory, run that. Simplify.

2 - Also, we have built countless computers. We have used nearly every manufacturer out there. We have spent thousands of hours diagnosing systems with weird problems. But then, we started using only well-documented Intel processors on thoroughly-tested Asus motherboards, all at stock speeds. (We also use Asus video cards.)

Twenty or thirty years ago our time was not worth much, but now it is worth much more to us, because it is a finite resource, and we are running out of it. So we use top tier products coupled with our experience and our stuff just works.

We are not saying an Asrock motherboard with an AMD processor will not work, but in our expert opinion, it is less likely to work easily.

Here is one of our recent build threads:

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=16871

FWIW, we built the Opteron system that GIMPS uses. It was a nightmare to build compared to our most recent plug and play adventure. Building computers today is almost boring because quality, well documented and tested components just seem to work.

But, we could be full of it, so YMMV.

Xyzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-29, 03:58   #25
LaurV
Romulan Interpreter
 
LaurV's Avatar
 
Jun 2011
Thailand

927510 Posts
Default

[thinking]Clearly AMD troll, as I assumed. He has no real problem with his system, just wanna prove AMD is better... This is how you catch them...[/thinking]

Again, in case you did not read the later edit of my previous post:

From Prime95 (the program) stress.txt file, last paragraph, last FAQ:

Code:
Q)  A forum member said "Don't bother with prime95, it always pukes on me,
and my system is stable!.  What do you make of that?"

    or

"We had a server at work that ran for 2 MONTHS straight, without a reboot
I installed Prime95 on it and ran it - a couple minutes later I get an error.
You are going to tell me that the server wasn't stable?"

    A)  These users obviously do not subscribe to the 100% rock solid
    school of thought.  THEIR MACHINES DO HAVE HARDWARE PROBLEMS.
    But since they are not presently running any programs that reveal
    the hardware problem, the machines are quite stable.  As long as
    these machines never run a program that uncovers the hardware problem,
    then the machines will continue to be stable.
Related to the part with "AMD-the processor which never has bugs", try goggling dragonfly and Matt Dillon as a starting point. Here is a good one.

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2013-01-29 at 04:13
LaurV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-29, 04:52   #26
Prime95
P90 years forever!
 
Prime95's Avatar
 
Aug 2002
Yeehaw, FL

735810 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
The only reason I replied to Prime95's AMD comment was because his perception is completely inaccurate..., unlike the Intel shipments of defective products, which are documented. Concluding that the issue I am seeing is likely a result of AMD"s perceived QC issues would be wrong as there is no basis for this belief.
To clarify, I don't believe AMD products are defective as with the infamous Intel FDIV bug. I suspect there was a problem in the past, hopefully fixed, dealing with "binning". That is, selling a product rated to run at x GHz, but under some stress test scenarios it can't quite get to x GHz. Intel had this problem once, selling a 1.3GHz Pentium 3, which it later had to pull from the market. The only reason I mentioned all this is to shoot down the "I'm running at stock speed therefore there must be a software problem" argument.

The most common stress test failure I see today is memory sold as safe at X-Y-Z CAS/RAS/whatever-the-other-latency-setting-is. Unfortunately, under stress they are not completely stable at the X-Y-Z settings. This is due to either an inadequate binning process, or the pressures in the ultra-competitive memory market.

Now, let's get back on track. I like Xyzzy's idea of running a stress test in safe mode.
Prime95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-29, 14:19   #27
science_man_88
 
science_man_88's Avatar
 
"Forget I exist"
Jul 2009
Dumbassville

26·131 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
Since AMD hasn't shipped any defective products that I am aware of, there is no reason for them to have a recall.
and opinion statement, and though I suck at computers easy to find things to counter it with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opteron#Opteron_recall
AMD has recalled some E4 stepping-revision single-core Opteron processors, including x52 (2.6 GHz) and x54 (2.8 GHz) models which use DDR memory. The following table describes affected processors, as they are listed in AMD Opteron x52 and x54 Production Notice.

Last fiddled with by science_man_88 on 2013-01-29 at 14:20
science_man_88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-29, 17:22   #28
Jorge
 
Jan 2013

32 Posts
Default

This thread has turned into a pissfest over Intel vs. AMD when that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of if P95, V27.7 runs without issue on AMD Bulldozer/Vishera based CPUs under Windoze.

PLEASE people stop the B.S. I didn't ask for anyone's views on Intel vs. AMD processors and these pissfests are completely OFF-TOPIC and a disservice to those interesting in determining if there is some issue with P95, V27.7 running on Bulldozer/Vishera CPUs in Windoze.

It's always the SOS, with fanbois and their need to convince the world that their POV is correct - even when inappropriate and typically inaccurate subjective beliefs and conclusions, not based in reality or in science or in statistics.

If you want to have a pissfest on AMD vs. Intel - start your own thread and stop posting crap in this thread which is inappropriate. Had Prime 95 NOT stated that in his opinion that AMD IMC quality was not as good as Intel, none of this chicken shit fanbois crap would have been posted in this thread. Since there is no merit to this belief, please do not post this crap as it always turns into a pointless pissfest.

It's just ignorant for people to be posting this foolishness in this thread. The thread is about P95, not Intel vs. AMD. The technically and socially challenged people who go around calling other folks "trolls", because they don't participate in the fanboism debates, demonstrates their personal issues. They should take those personal issues elsewhere as they don't belong in this thread.

I follow a lot of PC hardware forums and I have yet to see any AMD CPU that would not run without error at it's stated frequency. If there is a rare exception, then it would be warrantied but this is not a known or documented issue with AMD IMCs. As noted previously, there are many people who are not qualified to be building PCs but as enthusiasts, they do so anyway.

Many people buy AMD CPUs because they cost less and provide a better value than Intel. Thus you are likely to find a higher percentage of AMD enthusiasts who are unable to sort thru their hardware issues compared to Intel enthusiasts, so the perception regarding AMD CPU/IMC quality can be skewed and not a true reflection of AMD quality at all.

In 20 years of building many AMD (and a few Intel), PC's, I have never had an AMD powered PC that wouldn't run P95 for 24 hours without issue. This PC with the FX processor and P95, V27.7 is the first time I have ever experienced an issue with my PC builds and P95 - yet this system runs bulletproof under OCCT.

By many accounts from respected PC builders, PC hardware review sites, etc. AMD CPUs and IMCs are every bit as good of quality as Intel products at their rated frequencies. I have yet to see any reputable PC hardware review website state that AMD has IMC quality issues at their rated frequency.

I have already ordered new RAM and I had already tested in Safe Mode, so I am doing all the logical steps to try and determine if this is a hardware or P95 issue. Until we get more results from people running P95 on Bulldozer/Vishera under Windoze, we won't be able to reach an informed conclusion.

PLEASE: If you have nothing specific to add to this thread regarding testing of P95, V27.7 under Windoze on a Bulldozer/Vishera CPU - DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD. Start you own thread in the appropriate section of the forum.

Futhermore DO NOT POST ANY CRAP ABOUT AMD vs. INTEL IN THIS THREAD as it is OFF-TOPIC and INAPPROPRIATE!

Last fiddled with by Jorge on 2013-01-29 at 17:34
Jorge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-29, 18:17   #29
rajula
 
rajula's Avatar
 
"Tapio Rajala"
Feb 2010
Finland

4738 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
My goal is to find an answer, but introducing an O/S that I won't be using isn't the best means to see if the issue exists under Windoze.
Clearly the issue exists under Windows, but wouldn't it be nice to know how related it is to having Windows as the OS?

In that regard I find xyzzy's suggestion to run P95 on Linux from a liveCD the best suggestion so far. This would not interfere with your current install and it is a (comparably) fast way of giving more hints about the role of the OS. But, it would take you a few minutes to download and write the image and boot up. Plus of course the time that it takes to run the stress test again.

As the second option I would underclock the CPU and memory and run the stress test. This should give strong hints on the reliability of the hardware.

As a side note, I have roughly 50/50 balance in AMD and intel CPUs that I am using and have used in the past. Although I find them all reliable I would never be so naive as to think that they could not have any hardware faults. In fact, that would be my first suspicion if there were an error/warning with P95.
rajula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-29, 20:05   #30
science_man_88
 
science_man_88's Avatar
 
"Forget I exist"
Jul 2009
Dumbassville

838410 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
Futhermore DO NOT POST ANY CRAP ABOUT AMD vs. INTEL IN THIS THREAD as it is OFF-TOPIC and INAPPROPRIATE!
really unless you do test to prove it's the software and not hardware ( in other words either exchanging hardware/disabling software ) there can be no conclusion drawn that is not opinion of one thing or another. you claim it has to be the software but it may just be that prime95 software detects this specific instance of hardware mishaps more often,
science_man_88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-30, 19:43   #31
Prime95
P90 years forever!
 
Prime95's Avatar
 
Aug 2002
Yeehaw, FL

2×13×283 Posts
Default

I just terminated the 16 thread, small FFT, Bulldozer torture test after 61 hours. No errors, no warnings.
Prime95 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-31, 06:13   #32
bcp19
 
bcp19's Avatar
 
Oct 2011

2A716 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
In 20 years of building many AMD (and a few Intel), PC's, I have never had an AMD powered PC that wouldn't run P95 for 24 hours without issue (UNTIL THIS ONE--->>>). This PC with the FX processor and P95, V27.7 is the first time I have ever experienced an issue with my PC builds and P95 - yet this system runs bulletproof under OCCT.
First, let me state I could care less about AMD vs Intel, but you sound like the fanboi you accuse others of being. There has NEVER been an AMD vs Intel flame war on this forum since I joined, until now, and who is the person up in arms and calling names?

To me, your statement above sums it all up. You talk about LaurV being condecending and conceited, but maybe you should look in the mirror since your statement comes across like you are saying "Since *I* have built X computers with no problems, this *CANNOT* be a hardware problem, the software *MUST* be bad".

Having spent 20 years as an electronic technician in the Navy (as well as over 35 years building computers), I can say with certainty that you cannot assume that because the parts are new that they are fault-free. Unless you can reproduce this same set of errors on several similar machines, I fail to see how you can blame the software. Simple logic should make this clear. If 100 computers run the program fault-free and 1 fails (even after several hours) then logic dictates there is a problem with the 1.

Please also remember this, while you may feel you deserve respect because of your past and experience (inferred from your posts), you are new here and the lack of respect you have shown others is most likely the reason you are not shown the respect you feel you deserve.
bcp19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
confusing server error messages ramgeis PrimeNet 2 2013-06-09 23:53
Error Messages from GGNFS EdH Factoring 4 2010-01-01 19:52
warning: zero character fivemack Msieve 1 2009-03-21 14:26
HHCTRL error messages in XP Pro edron1011 Software 0 2008-11-21 15:46
Firefox 2.0 warning Prime95 Lounge 7 2006-10-31 05:40

All times are UTC. The time now is 08:47.

Sat Mar 6 08:47:52 UTC 2021 up 93 days, 4:59, 0 users, load averages: 1.20, 1.13, 1.09

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum has received and complied with 0 (zero) government requests for information.

Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation.
A copy of the license is included in the FAQ.