On the origin of language ...

Dr Sardonicus · 2018-09-20, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick

If you ever come to Haarlem, it's worth going on the little tour of the Corrie ten Boom house as well,
where she hid Jewish people from the Nazis during the Second World War.

(And, yes, the Harlem in New York is named for our Haarlem, which is much older!)

Ah, yes, New York, or at least the south end of Manhattan Island, was once "New Amsterdam."

The "aa" is also in the old spelling of "Catskill," namely "Kaatskill," which appears in, e.g. Rip Van Winkle by Washington Irving, and the word "kraal," which became the US word "corral."
The "aa" and "oo" often indicate Dutch words; also the hard-c or k-sound of "sch." The word "school" exhibits both features.

The k-sounding "sch" led to an "aha" moment when my neighbors told me about their dog, which they had found wandering along a river while they were on a vacation. They adopted the dog and named it Rio. It was a breed I hadn't seen before, smallish but rather muscular and quite alert. They told me the name of the breed which sounded like "skipper key" and spelled it out, "schipperke." The result was like a traffic pileup in my head: "Sch, k sound, Dutch! Skipper -- captain! It's a small dog -- -ke ending, must be a diminutive! Little captain!

I soon learned that this breed was commonly used as a watchdog on barges, and the name of the breed is also translated, "little boatman."

xilman · 2018-09-20, 17:53

Also compare English yacht, which comes from the Dutch, with German Jäger, meaning hunter --- hence a particularly fast sailing vessel.

Quick poll for those who know at least some Dutch (== Deutsch of course): if you put English at one end of a continuum and German at the other, how far is Dutch from English? Personally I reckon it is rather closer to English than German --- perhaps 40/60 but others have told me that it's the other way round.

Paul

LaurV · 2018-09-21, 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus

Ah, yes, ...

For some unknown reason, I love this post!

Dr Sardonicus · 2018-09-21, 11:59

My all-time favorite for a word (supposedly) of Dutch origin is yankee. There are multiple proposals. One is the names Janke (Little John?) or Janneke (Little Jane?). Another is the name Jan Kees.

Yet another, and my favorite, is Jan Kaas, "John Cheese," which I have heard was a derogatory term. The British used yankees as a derogatory term for the American colonists. The phrase "stuck a feather in his cap and called it Macaroni" from "Yankee Doodle" refers to the then-current usage of "macaroni" as meaning stylish. The implication was that yankees were unsophisticated.

Nick · 2018-09-21, 14:18

I didn't realize that English "corral" came from Dutch "kraal" (which means bead, of course) - thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

Quick poll for those who know at least some Dutch (== Deutsch of course): if you put English at one end of a continuum and German at the other, how far is Dutch from English? Personally I reckon it is rather closer to English than German --- perhaps 40/60 but others have told me that it's the other way round.

There is a geographical element: the Dutch dialect along some parts of our Eastern border has a lot in common with the low German spoken locally on the other side,
while to the West the sea hinders such a diffusion with English.

Dr Sardonicus · 2018-09-21, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick

I didn't realize that English "corral" came from Dutch "kraal" (which means bead, of course) - thanks!

The meaning I'm familiar with is, an enclosure for livestock.

Brian-E · 2018-09-21, 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

[...]
Quick poll for those who know at least some Dutch (== Deutsch of course): if you put English at one end of a continuum and German at the other, how far is Dutch from English? Personally I reckon it is rather closer to English than German --- perhaps 40/60 but others have told me that it's the other way round.

Paul

Dutch vocabulary is closer to English, I would say. But grammar and sentence structure is closer to German.

kladner · 2018-09-22, 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus

Ah, yes, New York, or at least the south end of Manhattan Island, was once "New Amsterdam."

The "aa" is also in the old spelling of "Catskill," namely "Kaatskill," which appears in, e.g. Rip Van Winkle by Washington Irving, and the word "kraal," which became the US word "corral."
The "aa" and "oo" often indicate Dutch words; also the hard-c or k-sound of "sch." The word "school" exhibits both features.

The k-sounding "sch" led to an "aha" moment when my neighbors told me about their dog, which they had found wandering along a river while they were on a vacation. They adopted the dog and named it Rio. It was a breed I hadn't seen before, smallish but rather muscular and quite alert. They told me the name of the breed which sounded like "skipper key" and spelled it out, "schipperke." The result was like a traffic pileup in my head: "Sch, k sound, Dutch! Skipper -- captain! It's a small dog -- -ke ending, must be a diminutive! Little captain!

I soon learned that this breed was commonly used as a watchdog on barges, and the name of the breed is also translated, "little boatman."

I believe "corral" came into US English via Spanish/Portuguese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraal#Etymology

I also remember a game of African origin, which my family had. I can't remember the name. A thick board with two rows of round pits, with round-end elongated pits at each end. I think this were called kraals. Play involved moving markers, like beans or pebbles, from pit to pit in such a way as to collect chits in your kraal.

EDIT: https://www.mastersofgames.com/rules/mancala-rules.htm

Maybe I am confusing kraal with https://www.mastersofgames.com/cat/b...ala-kalaha.htm

houding · 2018-09-22, 10:43

My home language is Afrikaans. It has a lot of Dutch and German in it.

I remember while still at high school one of the books we read had some Dutch in it. And when it came to be my turn to read, one of the words was "poespas". Well, p**s in Afrikaans has something to do with a female, so take a guess how I must have felt at that moment

pinhodecarlos · 2018-09-22, 10:51

Just a quick note with regards to the origin of “curral” in Portuguese. It comes from the:

Kr [kar] (ancient Ugaritic and Hebrew) - lamb
HL [âal] (ancient Hebrew) lost sheep’s

So an enclosure for cattle or other livestock.

VictordeHolland · 2018-09-22, 14:00

I would concur that Dutch is a bit of a mix of English with German sounds. But since WW2 the balance has shifted more towards English, as in that we loan more and more English words without a 'proper' translation.

Also I hate it that they changed the spelling of words like:
Buro/bureau
kado/cadeau
pannekoek/pannenkoek
couple of times in the last decates.

2018-09-22, 10:51	#10
pinhodecarlos "Carlos Pinho" Oct 2011 Milton Keynes, UK 7·733 Posts	Just a quick note with regards to the origin of “curral” in Portuguese. It comes from the: Kr [kar] (ancient Ugaritic and Hebrew) - lamb HL [âal] (ancient Hebrew) lost sheep’s So an enclosure for cattle or other livestock. Last fiddled with by pinhodecarlos on 2018-09-22 at 10:53

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2018-09-20, 17:53	#2
xilman Bamboozled! "𒉺𒌌𒇷𒆷𒀭" May 2003 Down not across 2×7³×17 Posts	Also compare English yacht, which comes from the Dutch, with German Jäger, meaning hunter --- hence a particularly fast sailing vessel. Quick poll for those who know at least some Dutch (== Deutsch of course): if you put English at one end of a continuum and German at the other, how far is Dutch from English? Personally I reckon it is rather closer to English than German --- perhaps 40/60 but others have told me that it's the other way round. Paul

2018-09-21, 11:59	#4
Dr Sardonicus Feb 2017 Nowhere 1857₁₆ Posts	My all-time favorite for a word (supposedly) of Dutch origin is yankee. There are multiple proposals. One is the names Janke (Little John?) or Janneke (Little Jane?). Another is the name Jan Kees. Yet another, and my favorite, is Jan Kaas, "John Cheese," which I have heard was a derogatory term. The British used yankees as a derogatory term for the American colonists. The phrase "stuck a feather in his cap and called it Macaroni" from "Yankee Doodle" refers to the then-current usage of "macaroni" as meaning stylish. The implication was that yankees were unsophisticated.

2018-09-22, 10:43	#9
houding "Adolf" Nov 2013 South Africa 5×13 Posts	My home language is Afrikaans. It has a lot of Dutch and German in it. I remember while still at high school one of the books we read had some Dutch in it. And when it came to be my turn to read, one of the words was "poespas". Well, p**s in Afrikaans has something to do with a female, so take a guess how I must have felt at that moment

2018-09-22, 14:00	#11
VictordeHolland "Victor de Hollander" Aug 2011 the Netherlands 3²×131 Posts	I would concur that Dutch is a bit of a mix of English with German sounds. But since WW2 the balance has shifted more towards English, as in that we loan more and more English words without a 'proper' translation. Also I hate it that they changed the spelling of words like: Buro/bureau kado/cadeau pannekoek/pannenkoek couple of times in the last decates.