Could a cryptocurracy be made, to increase participation?

drkirkby · 2021-02-12, 22:34

* Some people, (myself included), contribute to GIMPS as we have an interest in maths.

* Some people mine cryptocurrencies, as they want to make money
* Some people (myself included), deal in cryptocurrency as an investment.

I can't help but feel that the number of contributors to GIMPS, (or a new similar project), would increase dramatically if there was a reward in the form of coins that people could collect. If a distributed system could be built, that mines Mersenne Primes, it has the potential to get users do it. Since one is not computing a useless hash like Bitcoin, the ASICs used for mining Bitcoin and similar would be no use. (Perhaps people would build ASICs to do FFTs, but would that be such a bad thing?) Don't just offer a reward for actually finding a Mersenne Prime, as its unlikely any individual would find one. But for some part in eliminating possible exponents, such as trial division etc.

Dave

chalsall · 2021-02-12, 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkirkby

Don't just offer a reward for actually finding a Mersenne Prime, as its unlikely any individual would find one. But for some part in eliminating possible exponents, such as trial division etc.

Sigh... Really? This discussion, again?

Just because Musk invested 1.5B in Bitcoin by way of his Tesla vehicle doesn't mean every equation works.

Sigh again...

Batalov · 2021-02-12, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkirkby

If a distributed system could be built, that mines Mersenne Primes, it has the potential to get users do it.

Wow! If only it could be built.

Wait a minute! It actually has been built!
It finds only one coin (previously) per year, and now maybe one every several years.
An every coin owner is known!

retina · 2021-02-12, 23:58

The obvious problem in making a cryptocurrency from MPs is the lack of crypto.

How would you stop someone stealing "your" coveted primes? How would someone buying "your" prime know that you no longer have it? How would you stop someone else simply duplicating your work to find "your" prime again? etc. etc. etc. ...

M344587487 · 2021-02-13, 00:09

PRP theoretically could be used with some alteration of PRP proofs as proof of work, it would be extremely wasteful to do so in the traditional adversarial PoW sense. TF could not easily be used as PoW. No chance in hell a crypto would succeed even if someone was mad enough to create it. Frankly the world has enough trash coins and no one except us would give a toss that the work had some utility, and as it's less efficient than the status quo not even we would give a toss. Even if the crypto could be made to be nearly as efficient as direct contribution, half the people on this board would reject it on principle. Nice in theory, dead in the water in practice.

All crypto is good for on this board is to get people yelling at clouds. It would be a mercy to just yell Hitler now and end the discussion by Godwin, but far be it from me to ruin a good rant opportunity.

chalsall · 2021-02-13, 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by M344587487

...but far be it from me to ruin a good rant opportunity.

Oh, come on...

We haven't yet even gotten into discussing searching spaces exhaustively (sometimes cooperatively; sometimes competitively).

LaurV · 2021-02-13, 07:12

Ignoring the "crypto" part (that can be implemented, with a little effort), how do you avoid people searching in advance? I could test a range of exponents, and wait patiently one year or so, until the wave reach them, then jump into it and adjudicate the respective blocks when the time comes. The key of the blockchain is not the "crypto" part, that provides the safety, but the key is the randomness, I don't know in advance what activity I will have to do, so I can not "prepare", I can not "preprint" my money and lurk in the dark around the corner to launch them into circulation when the opportunity arises. When the task is given (i.e. "verify this block, NOW!"), all miners jump in and the one which is faster will get the cream. As the blocks are hundreds of bits, you can not prepare the nonces in advance for them. Which is not the case for prime hunting, unless some more clever guy here comes with the math... I could make a "secret database" of LL tests and TF/P-1/ECM factors in advance, and if the opportunity appears, pump them into the chain, no-one will stop me. Also, to verify the blocks, one would need to invest ticks, so then the ticks for finding primes and factors would be shared with the ticks of mining (i.e. certifying the blocks). You wouldn't want to share them, regardless if your goal is to find primes or collect coins.

drkirkby · 2021-02-13, 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batalov

Wow! If only it could be built.

Wait a minute! It actually has been built!
It finds only one coin (previously) per year, and now maybe one every several years.
An every coin owner is known!

I specifically said that the reward needed to be given for less work than finding a new Mersenne Prime.

Dave

drkirkby · 2021-02-13, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

Ignoring the "crypto" part (that can be implemented, with a little effort), how do you avoid people searching in advance? I could test a range of exponents, and wait patiently one year or so, until the wave reach them, then jump into it and adjudicate the respective blocks when the time comes. The key of the blockchain is not the "crypto" part, that provides the safety, but the key is the randomness, I don't know in advance what activity I will have to do, so I can not "prepare", I can not "preprint" my money and lurk in the dark around the corner to launch them into circulation when the opportunity arises. When the task is given (i.e. "verify this block, NOW!"), all miners jump in and the one which is faster will get the cream..

How about if the randomness could be arranged by the exponent range being some function of a national lottery numbers, some time in the future? For example, the UK national lottery has 7 numbers each month, all in the range 1-49. The last main lottery (10th February), had the numbers 7, 23, 30, 32, 36, 8 and 12. The exponent range could be set by some algorithm based on those numbers. The exponents had to be in the range of +/- 500,000 from some sensible function of the lottery numbers.

Probably something the public would find more attractive to mine would be if the computational work aided medical research, but I have no idea how that could be implemented.

Dave.

M344587487 · 2021-02-13, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalsall

Oh, come on...

Okay fine, I'll flex my crank muscle just this once to get the party going ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

Ignoring the "crypto" part (that can be implemented, with a little effort), how do you avoid people searching in advance? I could test a range of exponents, and wait patiently one year or so, until the wave reach them, then jump into it and adjudicate the respective blocks when the time comes.
...

Integrate the hash of the previous block into the proof, such that doing the work from scratch is the most efficient way to do the work. Assuming the PoW is a chunk of PRP it could probably be achieved by bitshifting (or some other lossless transformation) based on the previous block + header of your block, possibly requiring a modification to the proof generation to eliminate the ability to convert from a pre-computed proof quickly.

The final piece of the puzzle is having multiple in-progress tests exist simultaneously by incentivising the inclusion of someone else's result in the header your result. Enough in-progress tests would eliminate most of the wasted cycles from an adversarial model, work that lost the race to be the next head of the chain would not be wasted (except when someone beats you to completing the specific work you were working on). You could even incorporate DC's of a sort by allowing a second verification result for any given chunk of work, reducing wasted cycles further. Multiple in-progress tests also allows differing strength hardware to participate, so I think it is the magic bullet that would allow a blockchain to do what it would need to do for our purposes.

chalsall · 2021-02-14, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by M344587487

Okay fine, I'll flex my crank muscle just this once to get the party going ;)

And, then suddenly, everything got quiet.

Nature abhors a vacuum...

2021-02-12, 22:34	#1
drkirkby "David Kirkby" Jan 2021 Althorne, Essex, UK 63₁₆ Posts	Could a cryptocurracy be made, to increase participation? * Some people, (myself included), contribute to GIMPS as we have an interest in maths. * Some people mine cryptocurrencies, as they want to make money * Some people (myself included), deal in cryptocurrency as an investment. I can't help but feel that the number of contributors to GIMPS, (or a new similar project), would increase dramatically if there was a reward in the form of coins that people could collect. If a distributed system could be built, that mines Mersenne Primes, it has the potential to get users do it. Since one is not computing a useless hash like Bitcoin, the ASICs used for mining Bitcoin and similar would be no use. (Perhaps people would build ASICs to do FFTs, but would that be such a bad thing?) Don't just offer a reward for actually finding a Mersenne Prime, as its unlikely any individual would find one. But for some part in eliminating possible exponents, such as trial division etc. Dave

2021-02-13, 07:12	#7
LaurV Romulan Interpreter Jun 2011 Thailand 9,371 Posts	Ignoring the "crypto" part (that can be implemented, with a little effort), how do you avoid people searching in advance? I could test a range of exponents, and wait patiently one year or so, until the wave reach them, then jump into it and adjudicate the respective blocks when the time comes. The key of the blockchain is not the "crypto" part, that provides the safety, but the key is the randomness, I don't know in advance what activity I will have to do, so I can not "prepare", I can not "preprint" my money and lurk in the dark around the corner to launch them into circulation when the opportunity arises. When the task is given (i.e. "verify this block, NOW!"), all miners jump in and the one which is faster will get the cream. As the blocks are hundreds of bits, you can not prepare the nonces in advance for them. Which is not the case for prime hunting, unless some more clever guy here comes with the math... I could make a "secret database" of LL tests and TF/P-1/ECM factors in advance, and if the opportunity appears, pump them into the chain, no-one will stop me. Also, to verify the blocks, one would need to invest ticks, so then the ticks for finding primes and factors would be shared with the ticks of mining (i.e. certifying the blocks). You wouldn't want to share them, regardless if your goal is to find primes or collect coins. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2021-02-13 at 07:20

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2021-02-12, 23:58	#4
retina Undefined "The unspeakable one" Jun 2006 My evil lair 17E7₁₆ Posts	The obvious problem in making a cryptocurrency from MPs is the lack of crypto. How would you stop someone stealing "your" coveted primes? How would someone buying "your" prime know that you no longer have it? How would you stop someone else simply duplicating your work to find "your" prime again? etc. etc. etc. ...

2021-02-13, 00:09	#5
M344587487 "Composite as Heck" Oct 2017 3×263 Posts	PRP theoretically could be used with some alteration of PRP proofs as proof of work, it would be extremely wasteful to do so in the traditional adversarial PoW sense. TF could not easily be used as PoW. No chance in hell a crypto would succeed even if someone was mad enough to create it. Frankly the world has enough trash coins and no one except us would give a toss that the work had some utility, and as it's less efficient than the status quo not even we would give a toss. Even if the crypto could be made to be nearly as efficient as direct contribution, half the people on this board would reject it on principle. Nice in theory, dead in the water in practice. All crypto is good for on this board is to get people yelling at clouds. It would be a mercy to just yell Hitler now and end the discussion by Godwin, but far be it from me to ruin a good rant opportunity.