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Old 2013-10-26, 00:29   #1
Raman
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Question SCRABBLE

Would anyone be interested in forming a couple of teams on mersenneforum and playing a game of SCRABBLE on the forum clue? Monopoly?

A
1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 B3
B3 C3 C3 D2 D2 D2 D2 E1 E1 E1
E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 F4
F4 G2 G2 G2 H4 H4 I1 I1 I1 I1
I1 I1 I1 I1 I1 J8 K5 L1 L1 L1
L1 M3 M3 N1 N1 N1 N1 N1 N1 O1
O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 P3 P3 Q10
R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 S1 S1 S1 S1
T1 T1 T1 T1 T1 T1 U1 U1 U1 U1
V4 V4 W4 W4 X10 Y4 Y4 Z10 ?0 ?0

Last fiddled with by Raman on 2013-10-26 at 01:25
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Old 2013-10-26, 06:36   #2
Raman
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A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 B3
B3
C3 C3 D2 D2 D2 D2 E1 E1 E1
E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 F4
F4
G2 G2 G2 H4 H4 I1 I1 I1 I1
I1 I1 I1 I1 I1 J8 K5 L1 L1 L1
L1 M3 M3 N1 N1 N1 N1 N1 N1 O1
O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 P3 P3 Q10
R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 S1 S1 S1 S1
T1 T1 T1 T1 T1 T1 U1 U1 U1 U1
V4 V4 W4 W4 X8 Y4 Y4 Z10 ?0 ?0
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Old 2013-10-26, 06:55   #3
petrw1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raman View Post
A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 B3
B3
C3 C3 D2 D2 D2 D2 E1 E1 E1
E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 F4
F4
G2 G2 G2 H4 H4 I1 I1 I1 I1
I1 I1 I1 I1 I1 J8 K5 L1 L1 L1
L1 M3 M3 N1 N1 N1 N1 N1 N1 O1
O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 O1 P3 P3 Q10
R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 S1 S1 S1 S1
T1 T1 T1 T1 T1 T1 U1 U1 U1 U1
V4 V4 W4 W4 X8 Y4 Y4 Z10 ?0 ?0
Sure....how do you envision it?
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Old 2013-10-26, 08:10   #4
LaurV
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String? Predrawn? Who is drawing?
If not, how do we draw? (to make sure no team cheats?)

Playing online "classical" scrabble has lots of difficulties and it is easy to cheat.

We use to play years ago, a "variation" on a predrawn string (the leters are pre-ordered in a string, and if one player puts 5 letter on the table, he takes the next 5 letters from the string). This eliminates the "random" factor and it is the only way in which a human player can regularly beat a computer player (you can think in advance, you always know what letter your opponents have; for a computer, it is very difficult to think in advance, to "prepare" the "hand", due to the complexity, each turn you can make in average few thousand "moves", from which 400 or so are "legal", and 100 are "good moves", much more than for chess, and for every move the computer has to "verify" the legality of it, and for the next hands, if he "think in advance". There is no (good) scrabble program which can think "in advance" (playing on pre-drawn strings). All programs can play the classical "random" version, where you take letters from a "bag" when you deploy your moves. Those programs can give you good satisfaction for classic play, but all are easy piece of cake to beat for a predrawn string.

I thing playing scrabble would be nice and useful, many people (including native speakers) will learn a lot of things. I used to play "pro" scrabble 30 years ago. I have a very large English vocabulary, I would say, better than most native speakers, my problem is the grammar and even worse the pronunciation (my girls are making a lot of fun of me when I talk English, hehe).
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Old 2013-10-26, 17:20   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurV View Post
I have a very large English vocabulary, I would say, better than most native speakers, my problem is the grammar and even worse the pronunciation (my girls are making a lot of fun of me when I talk English, hehe).
As a native English speaker, I do not care how much you mangle the language as long a I can understand you. I think your girls are being unfair.
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Old 2013-10-26, 17:43   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurV View Post
String? Predrawn? Who is drawing?
If not, how do we draw? (to make sure no team cheats?)
If there are n tiles remaining and you want to draw m, you could have each player choose a number between 1 and binomial(n, m) at random, then add them all together mod binomial(n, m) and select the appropriate tiles. You'd need to have them commit to these numbers before revealing them, which could be done with cryptographic security by hashing a nonce together with the selected number (then revealing the decryption afterward).

...or you could just trust people to not cheat.

Last fiddled with by CRGreathouse on 2013-10-26 at 17:43
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Old 2013-10-26, 17:46   #7
Mini-Geek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurV View Post
String? Predrawn? Who is drawing?
If not, how do we draw? (to make sure no team cheats?)

Playing online "classical" scrabble has lots of difficulties and it is easy to cheat.

We use to play years ago, a "variation" on a predrawn string (the leters are pre-ordered in a string, and if one player puts 5 letter on the table, he takes the next 5 letters from the string). This eliminates the "random" factor...
As a thought experiment at least, I think a trusted random server could be set up:

A server, not under the direct control of any of the players, but of a trusted third party, is set up. The server uses a random number generator (e.g. http://random.org) to randomly generate the string. It then contacts a trusted timestamp authority, generates an XML file (or whatever format) that contains both the trusted timestamp and the string of letters. A signature of this file is released publicly, but the file itself is kept hidden for now. Each player saves this signature, so that they can verify the game afterwards. During the game, the server only reveals the letters needed to the player who "grabbed" them (the list of moves is public - the letters themselves are known only to the server and the player who has the letters at this point). When the game is over, the server reveals the XML file. Using this and the record of who grabbed letters in what order, all players can verify the integrity of the game: both that the string presented is truly the one that was used, and that no players played characters they did not have.

If someone could get access to that XML file on the server, they could have an advantage by knowing what letters are coming up, and who holds what letters, hence the need for it to be managed by a trusted third party. Even if someone had full control over the server and wished to cheat, they could not pretend that they have letters they do not, or change the string as they wish. They would only know more.

(Edit: the timestamp is not, now that I think about it, strictly necessary, but it does make it that much harder to fake anything)

Last fiddled with by Mini-Geek on 2013-10-26 at 17:53
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Old 2013-10-26, 18:18   #8
Raman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurV View Post
String? Predrawn? Who is drawing?
If not, how do we draw? (to make sure no team cheats?)

Playing online "classical" scrabble has lots of difficulties and it is easy to cheat.
I suggest that some referee or administrator of this proposed floating
Scrabble game should be in charge of drawing tiles for the all players or else otherwise
of team
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Old 2013-11-18, 13:53   #9
Raman
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I recently came across Super Scrabble , still yet another Mattel licensed product, with 200 tiles and 441 square board, as compared to 100 tiles vs 225 square board from original version. I think that it would be certainly even more fun rather playing within extra spaces, quadruple letter / word scores, and then, why, even, different tile distributions, cases.

Why, it is even possible to play Scrabble game within different languages, cases, including English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese ... languages, everything within different tile / scoring distributions, cases, why, even, within some of them including within some special accent characters, cases, that are being rarely used with in it / them.

Scrabble is being likely my own next favourite game, being serving as a suitable candidate for the tournament play, afterwards, cases, next to chess. Being followed by using Cluedo, Clue Master Detective game / match game, that it is being truly this thing being with in it / them, Monopoly, Trade game, Game of Life, for the time period being, why not off, opt for the off that this way, even including within even Carrom Board games, like to, likely towards Billiards ... , wards, afterwards, after, wards, to, towards, wards, before, beforewards, wards, wards, off off, off that this way off, off opt for the off, off off , ... what about / why not

Last fiddled with by Raman on 2013-11-18 at 14:51
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Old 2013-12-11, 21:56   #10
Raman
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I tried to play a game of Super Scrabble online, but I think it shows a clear imbalance of letter tiles.

The set has 2 Q, 2 J, 2 X, 2 Z tiles which I think is too much given the frequency of occurrence of these letters.
These letters dominate the game along with V, W, Y each of which are four in the pack, appears to be a bit higher to me.

Two Z is reasonable, given that there are many words with two consecutive Z, but words are seldom with two Q, two X or two J.
In a game such as Yahoo Literati, where tiles are randomly generated and distribution not fixed before the game, of 200 tiles,
number of Z could be random with one or two.

Two K is mandatory out of 200 tiles because that letters occurs a bit more frequently than Q, J, X or Z. In a random tile generation,
I would recommend out of 200 tiles, number of K at random with two or even three.

In a survey of words, I found that K is more frequently used than V, but in original scrabble set out of 100 tiles, we have only one K,
but two V. In super scrabble set out of 200 tiles, we have two K, four V.

Fewer number of V, W, Y, or even Q, J, X, (not necessarily Z) will be pleasant because these tiles will go well with other letters,
and thus make more chances to score bingo. If there is more domination of these letters, then a frequent combination of these letters
will occur in the rack which might be unpleasant. Same word will be played again and again, perhaps into from different games played.

If I were to create the game, I would have definitely not allowed more than one Q in the game of 200 tiles, in the random game, it
would be zero or one Q per 200 tiles. I don't want to see the same word played again and again, returning back repeating with these
rare letters tiles, out of a very few words in which these rare letters tiles do occur.

In the super scrabble pack, I am glad to see number of S raised from double the original distribution, in the 200 tile distribution.
S is definitely below optimal in the original 100 tile distribution. I don't know why. If there are more S, it would be spent more in
plurals rather than in middle or start of word. Why do we end all plurals with S?

Q is most unpleasant tile of game, S is most pleasant tile of game.

There are six C in the 200 tile Super Scrabble pack tile distribution, which is good because I have noticed its frequent usage. In the
original 100 tile pack, I would also recommend three C is good. In Yahoo literati, A, E, I, O, U, S, R, T, N, L, C, D, M, G all are worth
one point. B, H, P worth two points. F, K, Y worth three points. V, W worth four points. Q, J, X, Z worth five points. There are many words
with C combining together with rare H and K, which we seldom can play with original 100 tile scrabble version, allows encouragement of these
words. H would also frequently combine with S, T, W, G as with C some of which are rare letter tiles available.

I don't know why number of I is reduced from 9 in the original Scrabble version to 13 in the super scrabble version. I is a useful tile. It
is a vowel. May be the creator might have got sick of I dumps with his play. I would recommend 15 or 16 I tile out of 200 tiles.

Number of T is 6 in the original Scrabble version, 15 in the super Scrabble version. Isn't this too much? I would recommend around 13 T tiles
out of 200 tiles. T and H are more frequently used in sentences. On the other hand, if we look at words, it's not the case. S is more frequently
used. Perhaps if the plurals are not allowed? Please imagine!

In a survey of words, I noticed that R is more frequently used than N and T, and even S if the plurals were allowed or counted.

While playing Words with Friends, I observed it has four H tiles out of 100 tiles which clearly appears to be higher to me and unpleasant.

Letter tile L had been 4 out of 100 tiles in original scrabble version, it has been lowered to 7 out of 200 tiles into super scrabble which looks
quite lower to me. In the survey of words, L has been frequently used than D, D has been frequently used than U. 7 tiles out of 200 tiles available
is quite lower for L, 11 is bit higher. My recommendation is 9 which is good. 10 is also optimal because we frequently encounter words with 2
consecutive L, E, O. 8 is twice the distribution from original scrabble pack, which looks bit lower to me. 12 tiles out of 200 tiles available
is quite higher for L.

Letter tile U is perfect to be at 7 tiles out of 200 tiles based upon my survey of words. In the original scrabble version pack, it is 4 tiles
out of 100 tiles which is a bit higher than normal. It is quite an unpleasant tile, even if it is a vowel, with some U dumps which are unpleasant.
Eventhough I prefer words with Q followed by U which are genuine English words for Q. U would frequently combine with Q, with some U dumps.

In the original scrabble version pack, there were three G tiles per 100 tiles which is quite good. In the super scrabble version pack, its ratio
has been lowered to five G tiles per 100 tiles which is below optimal based upon my survey of words. I would recommend six G tiles per 200 tiles
which is quite good.

Based upon my survey of words, eventhough O is a vowel, it has been less frequently used than vowels A, E, I, even consonants like S, R, T, N. O is used
more frequently than vowel U. So, in the original scrabble version pack, 8 O tiles per 100 tiles, in the super scrabble version pack, 15 O tiles per 200
tiles, are quite above nominal levels. My recommendation would be 12 or 13 O tiles per 200 tiles which is quite good.

Based upon my survey of words, P is more frequently used than M, M is more frequently used than B, B is more frequently used than Y, Y is more frequently
used than F. F is more frequently used than W and K. Although these sounds are special. W and K are nearly used frequently at same levels. W and K are
more frequently used than V, followed by X, J, Z, Q, in that order.

In the original scrabble version pack, there are 2 blank wild tiles out of 100 tiles. In super scrabble version pack, there are 4 blank wild tiles out of
200 tiles. Isn't that too much? My recommendation would be 2 blank wild tiles out of 200 tiles eventhough they would be helpful for a bingo. So, what about
this blank wild tile out of 100 tile ratio?

In the original scrabble version pack, the vowel : consonant ratio is 42 : 56. In the super scrabble version pack, it is 75 : 121. Isn't it too low? Or isn't
it too high? What should be the nominal vowel : consonant ratio? Shouldn't it be 50 : 50 out of 100 tiles or 100 : 100 out of 200 tiles? Or is it too much
higher? What is the normal distribution of vowel : consonant ratio in an average word collection or in an average sentence?

D is also a pleasant tile of game in order to play with. Less irritating letter tiles are being C, G, L, M, P. H, U, B, F is being slightly unpleasant letter tile in order to play within into
as it is being mentioned as above. These letter tiles are being within into average case in order to play within into as it is being mentioned as above. As yet, following letter tiles
distribution still they are being unpleasant letter tiles as they are being lying within into are being following letter tiles, letter tile in order to play within into
distribution as it is being mentioned as above, as, as such, as since, as well, as follows, as yet, as still, as, as per following distribution letter tiles: J, K, Q, V, W, X, Y, Z. Letter tile in order to play within into
as it is being mentioned as above.


If I were to be the creator of the game, I would recommend the following letter distribution for the super scrabble version pack game out of 200 tiles, or half
of that for the out of 100 tiles, for the original scrabble version pack game.

A: 16, B: 4, C: 6, D: 9, E: 24, F: 4, G: 6, H: 5, I: 16, J: 1, K: 3, L: 9, M: 5, N: 13, O: 13, P: 5, Q: 1, R: 14, S: 11, T: 13, U: 7, V: 3, W: 4, X: 1, Y: 4, Z: 1, Wild: 2

Super Scrabble version pack

A: 16, B: 4, C: 6, D: 8, E: 24, F: 4, G: 5, H: 5, I: 13, J: 2, K: 2, L: 7, M: 6, N: 13, O: 15, P: 4, Q: 2, R: 13, S: 10, T: 15, U: 7, V: 3, W: 4, X: 2, Y: 4, Z: 2, Wild: 4

Twice original scrabble version pack

A: 18, B: 4, C: 4, D: 8, E: 24, F: 4, G: 6, H: 4, I: 18, J: 2, K: 2, L: 8, M: 4, N: 12, O: 16, P: 4, Q: 2, R: 12, S: 8, T: 12, U: 8, V: 4, W: 4, X: 2, Y: 4, Z: 2, Wild: 4

My first guess

A: 16, B: 4, C: 6, D: 8, E: 24, F: 4, G: 6, H: 5, I: 15, J: 1, K: 2, L: 8, M: 6, N: 13, O: 15, P: 4, Q: 1, R: 13, S: 11, T: 14, U: 7, V: 3, W: 4, X: 1, Y: 4, Z: 1, Wild: 4

Distribution based upon my survey of words

A: 16, B: 4, C: 6, D: 9, E: 24, F: 4, G: 6, H: 5, I: 16, J: 1, K: 2, L: 10, M: 5, N: 13, O: 13, P: 5, Q: 1, R: 14, S: 12, T: 13, U: 7, V: 2, W: 3, X: 1, Y: 3, Z: 1, Wild: 4

Letter tile scores

Standard scrabble version pack

A: 1, B: 3, C: 3, D: 2, E: 1, F: 4, G: 2, H: 4, I: 1, J: 8, K: 5, L: 1, M: 3, N: 1, O: 1, P: 3, Q: 10, R: 1, S: 1, T: 1, U: 1, V: 4, W: 4, X: 8, Y: 4, Z: 10, Wild: 0

Yahoo literati

A: 1, B: 2, C: 1, D: 1, E: 1, F: 3, G: 1, H: 2, I: 1, J: 5, K: 3, L: 1, M: 1, N: 1, O: 1, P: 2, Q: 5, R: 1, S: 1, T: 1, U: 1, V: 4, W: 4, X: 5, Y: 3, Z: 5, Wild: 0

My recommendation would be

A: 1, B: 4, C: 3, D: 2, E: 1, F: 4, G: 2, H: 3, I: 1, J: 8, K: 6, L: 2, M: 3, N: 1, O: 1, P: 3, Q: 10, R: 1, S: 1, T: 1, U: 2, V: 6, W: 5, X: 7, Y: 5, Z: 9, Wild: 0

Words with Friends

A: 1, B: 4, C: 4, D: 2, E: 1, F: 4, G: 3, H: 3, I: 1, J: 10, K: 5, L: 2, M: 4, N: 2, O: 1, P: 4, Q: 10, R: 1, S: 1, T: 1, U: 2, V: 5, W: 4, X: 8, Y: 3, Z: 10, Wild: 0

Cross Craze

A: 1, B: 4, C: 3, D: 2, E: 1, F: 5, G: 3, H: 4, I: 1, J: 8, K: 6, L: 2, M: 3, N: 2, O: 2, P: 3, Q: 10, R: 2, S: 1, T: 2, U: 2, V: 5, W: 5, X: 8, Y: 4, Z: 10, Wild: 0
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