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Old 2014-02-21, 05:56   #12
LaurV
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Same here, when I play with friends face to face, I overlook many moves and I only do a little better than an average player. Usually, when I lose, it is because I make stupid mistakes during the opening phase. Mostly I win, but that is not because I am good player, but because my friends do the same mistakes I do.

When you are at home and allowed to think for a week, the things are different.
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Old 2014-02-21, 19:20   #13
WMHalsdorf
 
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21 Nc5 Ra8(or b6) 22 Nxa6 Rxa6 23 Bxc6+ Nxc6 24 Nf2 f5 25 exf6 Rxf6 (not 25 ... Bxf6 26 Bxh6) 26 Ne4 (threatening Nd6+ and Nxc4) Rxf1+ 27 Rxf1 Ne7 (not ... Ke7 28 Nd2 wins the c-pawn) 28 Bf4 Nc8 29 Nc5 Rc6 30 Re1 Ke7 31 Nb7 Ra6 32 Bc7 Ra7 33 Nc5 Rxc7 34 Nxe6 Ra6 35 Nxg7+ Kf7 36 Ne6 Re7 37 Nd8+ Ke8 38 Rxe7+ Nxe7 (not ... Kxe7 39 Nc6+) 39 Nb7 Nc6 40 Nd6+ K-moves 41 Nxc4 and we're two pawns up.

34.... Bxd4+ 35. Nxd4+ with the goal of Re5 it looks like a long drawn out win.
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Old 2014-02-22, 01:19   #14
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Just noticed a typo in move 34 of my post #9 scenario:
[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;367478]21 Nc5 Ra8(or b6) 22 Nxa6 Rxa6 23 Bxc6+ Nxc6 24 Nf2 f5 25 exf6 Rxf6 (not 25 ... Bxf6 26 Bxh6) 26 Ne4 (threatening Nd6+ and Nxc4) Rxf1+ 27 Rxf1 Ne7 (not ... Ke7 28 Nd2 wins the c-pawn) 28 Bf4 Nc8 29 Nc5 Rc6 30 Re1 Ke7 31 Nb7 Ra6 32 Bc7 Ra7 33 Nc5 Rxc7 34 Nxe6 [strike]Ra6[/strike][/QUOTE]Ra7

But[quote]34.... Bxd4+[/quote]is much better than that!

- - -

You guys have convinced me about the superiority of [B]21 Nc5[/B].

However, I'm dubious about 23 Bxc6+ as a followup -- I can't even recall how it got into my scenario as a bolded main line move! I think our B/g2 is better than their N/c6.
23 Bd2 and 24 Ne3 would look better, if it weren't for 23 ... Nf5.

- - -

My vote as of now:

[B]21 Nc5[/B] -- 5
[B]21 Ndf2[/B] -- 3
[B]21 Bd2 [/B]-- 3
[B]21 Nf6+[/B] -- 0
[B][B][B]21 Nd6+[/B] [/B]--[/B] 0

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-02-22 at 01:56
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Old 2014-02-22, 03:04   #15
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[QUOTE=cheesehead;367496]Just noticed a typo in move 34 of my post #9 scenario:
Ra7

Butis much better than that!

- - -

You guys have convinced me about the superiority of [B]21 Nc5[/B].

However, I'm dubious about 23 Bxc6+ as a followup -- I can't even recall how it got into my scenario as a bolded main line move! I think our B/g2 is better than their N/c6.
23 Bd2 and 24 Ne3 would look better, if it weren't for 23 ... Nf5.
[/QUOTE]
if 23... Nf5 then 24. g4 chases it back.

21 Nc5 -- 5
21 Bd2 -- 3
21 Ndf2 -- 2
21 Nf6+ -- 0
21 Nd6+ -- 0
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Old 2014-02-22, 06:03   #16
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[QUOTE=cheesehead;367496]However, I'm dubious about 23 Bxc6+ as a followup -- I can't even recall how it got into my scenario as a bolded main line move![/QUOTE]_Now_ I remember. It's to remove a defender of b4. If Black recaptures with the other knight instead of the rook, then Ne3 nabs the c4-pawn.

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-02-22 at 06:23
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Old 2014-02-22, 12:19   #17
LaurV
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Ok. My vote for 21:

Nc5 - 5
Bd2 - 4
Ndf2 - 3
Nd6 - 1
Nf6 - 0

The tandem Nc5+Bd2 is very strong path for us now, and it may be how we actually win the game. The order may not be really important, as they don't have a good reply to Bd2 either, which would forbid us to play 22 Nc5, nor they have a very strong threat. I prefer 21 Nc5 because they are forced to move/defend the bishop, so this path is safer for us in case we missed something.

Now, should we play Nc5, or wait till Sunday, to deprive them of one weekend? hehe (I am sadistic now!)

I think we should play it.

Edit: for the path discussed above: [B]21 Nc5 Ra8[/B], then [B]22 Bd2[/B] is still good! in fact Ra8 is even better (!for us!) than Rc6, because black gave up the column b, and the rook now links the horse! What do they move 22...?? Because bxc3 is [STRIKE]really bad[/STRIKE] suicide! without that rook, and there is nothing to be done, maybe Bc8 only, but too defensive. Therefore, 21...Bc8 or Bb7 seem to be much better moved for them now than defending with the rook. And so, with Ne3 we develop the horse, as one of you already mentioned, and we may get the c4 pawn for free.

I think I will play Nc5 now, give them the weekend to think about. Let's be fair play and don't cut deeper into their wounds while they are already in the sink hole :razz:

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2014-02-22 at 12:52
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Old 2014-02-22, 18:06   #18
cheesehead
 
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[QUOTE=LaurV;367544]I think I will play Nc5 now[/quote]Fine.
[quote]cut deeper into their wounds while they are already in the sink hole :razz:[/QUOTE]Few would think of that combination.

- -

If 21 ... Ra8 or Rb6, Black would be indicating reluctance to move the B, so we could do something other than 22 Nxa6 immediately, because the B/a6 probably won't run away if it's already passed that up once.

We could then play 22 Bd2 (I've seen the light about ... bxc3, Bxc3 now, LaurV!) & 23 Ne3 first, then 24 Nxa6 & 25 Nxc4. Of course, I've skipped Black moves 22 and 23 there, so have to consider what Black could do on 22 and 23 to prevent (not just delay, such as ... bxc3) 25 Nxc4.

22 ... h5 and 23 ... Bh6, that's what.
[b]21 ... Ra8 (or Rb6) 22 Bd2 h5 23 Ne3 Bh6 24 Nxa6 Bxe3+ 25 Bxe3 Rxa6[/b]

So, attack c4 a different way: 22 Rf2, 23 Bf1, 24 Nxa6, 25 Bxc4
What can Black do on 22 and 23 to prevent (not just delay) 25 Bxc4?

21 ... Ra8, then bring over the other knight with 22 ... Nc8 and 23 ... Nb6 -- except for our 23 Bxc6+ interruption of [i]that[/i] scheme.

Oh, here it is:

[b]21 ... Bb7 22 Rf2 Nd5 23 Bd2 a5 24 Bf1 Nb6 25 Ne3 Bh6[/b] but we've succeeded in bringing two attacking pieces to bear on c4 versus one defender. [b]26 Nxc4[/b]. We got it.

Then maybe :-) 26 ... Bxd2 27 Nd6+ Ke7 28 Rxd2 Ba8 29 Na6 Rd8 30 Bb5 Na7 ... and I don't know what.
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Old 2014-02-23, 01:21   #19
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[QUOTE=cheesehead;367562]
[B]21 ... Bb7 22 Rf2 Nd5 23 Bd2 a5 24 Bf1 Nb6 25 Ne3 Bh6[/B] but we've succeeded in bringing two attacking pieces to bear on c4 versus one defender. [B]26 Nxc4[/B]. We got it.[/QUOTE]Why [b]21 ... Bb7[/b]?
If 21 ... Bc8 22 Rf2 Nd5 23 Bd2 a5 24 Ne3 but now 24 ... Nb6 is not feasible because of 25 Bxc6+. If instead 24 ... Nce7, the c4 pawn falls anyway: 25 Nxc4.
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Old 2014-02-23, 09:10   #20
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[QUOTE=cheesehead;367587] [B]21 ... Bb7[/B]?
[/QUOTE]
I also think that Bb7 is the best from the 4 moves they can play now (the other 3 are Rb6, Ra8, Bc8, to save the bishop). Anyhow, we still can play Bd2 after. We stay quite good now.
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Old 2014-02-23, 23:59   #21
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Something I forgot to do earlier: count tempos needed to achieve the subgoal of taking the c4 pawn. This may seem unnecessary after we've already laid out scenarios, but it might possibly help (me, at least :-) notice something overlooked.

(BTW, I don't recall ever having done this before the endgame phase in any previous game. I'll have to keep it in mind for possible future middlegame use.)

I'm going to count only the preparation tempi, not the actual c4 capture which should be simply a sequence of successive captures at the end.

For us:
Move N/d1 to e3, and B/g2 to f1, to have two attackers on c4: four tempi. Remove B/a6 defender if it's still there: one tempo. Total: 4-5.

For Black:
Defend B/a6, or move it: one tempo. Move N/e7, through either c8 or d5, to b6 for defending c4: two tempi. Either defend N/c6 or move it off the long diagonal: one tempo. However, Bb7 would simultaneously defend both B and N, so don't count that tempo twice. Move B/g7 to h6 for taking out our N/e3: two tempi. Total: 4-6.

However, some Black moves might interfere with other moves, such as (a) Rb6 to defend the B/a6 and also placing N/e7 on b6 to defend the c4-pawn or (b) moving Bc8 to escape attack and also moving N/e7 through c8, rather than Nd5, to reach b6. That means Black will probably not move Rb6, and must move Nd5 if the B/a6 retreats to c8.

Further, in order to retain B/g2 threats to capture a N on d5 or c6, we should leave the B/g2 where it is until the last moment, so Bf1 would be the last move of our sequence.

- -

So, how to use this?

First, on move 21:
If Black plays [B]21 ... Ra8 or Rb6[/B], then we'll (probably) have to spend the Nxa6 tempo, for a total of five.

But [B]21 ... Bb7[/B] would accomplish two things (defend B/a6, defend N/c6) with a single tempo. Then, once Black plays Nc8 or Nd5, we could remove the only remaining knight defender with Nxb7, same tempo as Nxa6 would have taken. But Black can probably avoid ever exposing the N/c6 to capture by the B/g2.

So, logical Black move 21 is [B]21 ... Bb7[/B] -- Oh, you guys already figured that out.

Move 22:
On moves 22 and 23, we can bring one attacker to bear on c4 -- the Ne3, because we want to leave Bf1 until last. So, [B]22 Bd2[/B] has merit over 22 Rf2.

Therefore, Black can't afford to waste any time bringing his N/e7 to defend c4. But 22 ... Nc8 isn't feasible because of 23 Nxb7 Rxb7 24 Bxc6+

So it'd be [B]22 ... Nd5[/B]

Now 23 Bxd5 would eliminate a potential c4 defender ... but that just would allow a different defender to appear: 23 ... exd5.
If then 24 Ne3 to attack the d5-pawn, 24 ... Ne7 defends it twice, and we could remove only one of those defenders with 25 Nxb7. Then after 25 ... Rxb7 we've basically just helped Black un-crowd his queen-side while winning no material.
We could then switch our attack to the b-pawn with 26 cxb4 axb4 27 Nc2 but 27 ... b3 squelches that.
We could then switch again to attack d5: 28 Na3 intending 29 Nb5 and 30 Bb4 pinning the N/e7 against the R/f8. Then repositioning with 31 Ba3 and 32 Nc3 gets us to where we can take out the N defender and capture the d5 pawn on successive moves. But that leaves out Black's 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32, which undoubtedly could be used not only to adequately defend d5, but also do other mischief.
So 23 Bxd5 looks like a dead-end unless one of you see something better.

[B]23 Ne3[/B] allows instant neutralization: [B]23 ... Nxe3 24 Bxe3[/B], but that would also revive our old threat on c6: 25 Nxb7 Rxb7 26 Bxc6+. So, Black would have to double-defend b7 with [B]24 ... Nd8[/B]. Now c4 is undefended, but we don't have time for 25 Rf2 and 26 Bf1 because of 25 ... Bxg2. So, we have to do [B]25 Nxb7[/B] first. [B]25 ... Nxb7[/B] (not ... Rxb7) [B]26 Rf2 Nd8 27 Bf1 Rc8[/B]
Now [B]28 Bd2[/B] would revive our attack on Black's a&b pawns.

Black could defend a5 with 28 ... Nb7 but that wouldn't help b4: 29 cxb4 axb4 30 Bxb4. So, Black does [B]28 ... bxc3[/B] first. [B]29 Bxc3 Nb7[/B] and Black has defended both pawns from our bishops' attacks.

30 Rc1 would threaten to capture on c4 (or c3) after 31 Bd2. Black could delay that with 30 ... f6 threatening fxe5 and bxe5. 31 exf6 Bxf6 unleashes that bishop, so better would be to just defend e5. 31 Re2 would block our light-squared bishops' attack. So, we need to move a different rook on move 30.

[b]30 Rc2[/b], then if 30 ... f6 31 Re1 fxe5 32 dxe5, it's possible to continue Black's attack on e5 with 32 ... Rf5 but 33 g4 Rg5 34 h3 Rc5 35 Bd4 stops that (if 35 ... Bxe5 36 Bxc5 Nxc5 37 Bxc4).

What else might Black try on move 30?

There may be some way for Black to deviate from the bolded line above, but I hope all our bolded moves are so forcing that they leave Black no spare time.

- - -

Given my past record about seeing moves in this game, the chances of the game's playing out just as I've outlined are probably nil. :-(

Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2014-02-24 at 00:57
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Old 2014-02-24, 02:14   #22
WMHalsdorf
 
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[edit by laurv: I cut the full text quote to the previous post, a bit too long for just one line reply :D]

23. Nxb7 Rxb7 24. Ne3 and the pawn on c4 falls.

Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2014-02-24 at 03:34
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