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Old 2020-10-05, 18:07   #1
The Carnivore
 
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Default Police in the US - or should it be "policing the US?!"

Questions for both sides of the political spectrum:

Democrats & Liberals - Why do you keep trying to turn this into a race issue when it's a police brutality issue? The slogan shouldn't be "Black Lives Matter", it should be "End Police Brutality", which affects people of all races. A white person in the US is 26 times more likely to be killed by the cops than a white person in Germany:
https://theconversation.com/amp/why-...ean-cops-49696

Why aren't we focusing on that? Where's the outrage for white victims of police brutality?
https://abc7chicago.com/amp/boy-with...oting/6415497/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...in-minneapolis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoo..._Daniel_Shaver

Republicans & Conservatives - You guys obviously don't want to defund the police. But instead of slamming the left for trying to do so, why not actually fund the police by agreeing with Democrats to include aid to local governments in the stimulus bill? The vast majority of the budget for local governments is used to pay for the salaries, benefits, pensions, and equipment for police and firefighters. If you're opposed to helping fund local governments whose revenues are down due to the pandemic, you're pretty much defunding the police.
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Old 2020-10-05, 18:50   #2
xilman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Carnivore View Post
Questions for both sides of the political spectrum:

Democrats & Liberals - Why do you keep trying to turn this into a race issue when it's a police brutality issue? The slogan shouldn't be "Black Lives Matter", it should be "End Police Brutality", which affects people of all races. A white person in the US is 26 times more likely to be killed by the cops than a white person in Germany:
https://theconversation.com/amp/why-...ean-cops-49696

Why aren't we focusing on that? Where's the outrage for white victims of police brutality?
https://abc7chicago.com/amp/boy-with...oting/6415497/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...in-minneapolis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoo..._Daniel_Shaver

Republicans & Conservatives - You guys obviously don't want to defund the police. But instead of slamming the left for trying to do so, why not actually fund the police by agreeing with Democrats to include aid to local governments in the stimulus bill? The vast majority of the budget for local governments is used to pay for the salaries, benefits, pensions, and equipment for police and firefighters. If you're opposed to helping fund local governments whose revenues are down due to the pandemic, you're pretty much defunding the police.
I suggest that it has quite a bit to do with the US insistence on the right to arm bears.
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Old 2020-10-05, 19:00   #3
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Happiness Is a Warm Gun.
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Old 2020-10-05, 19:56   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Carnivore View Post
Questions for both sides of the political spectrum:

Democrats & Liberals - Why do you keep trying to turn this into a race issue when it's a police brutality issue? The slogan shouldn't be "Black Lives Matter", it should be "End Police Brutality", which affects people of all races. A white person in the US is 26 times more likely to be killed by the cops than a white person in Germany:
https://theconversation.com/amp/why-...ean-cops-49696

Why aren't we focusing on that? Where's the outrage for white victims of police brutality?
https://abc7chicago.com/amp/boy-with...oting/6415497/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...in-minneapolis
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoo..._Daniel_Shaver

Republicans & Conservatives - You guys obviously don't want to defund the police. But instead of slamming the left for trying to do so, why not actually fund the police by agreeing with Democrats to include aid to local governments in the stimulus bill? The vast majority of the budget for local governments is used to pay for the salaries, benefits, pensions, and equipment for police and firefighters. If you're opposed to helping fund local governments whose revenues are down due to the pandemic, you're pretty much defunding the police.
For BLM the issue is the disproportionate impact the police brutality has on blacks. I suspect that if that issue is addressed (training, etc.) then the overall rate of police brutality against all people will be significantly reduced.

I'm frustrated by the Republican response to this. There is a huge opening for them to help look for solutions. I have talked to some conservatives on this exact issue. Here are some of the things they have said:
  • blacks kill more blacks, BLM should focus on that
  • cops kill whites too, so it should be "all lives matter"
  • BLM is run by a bunch of Marxists
  • BLM is a terrorist group
  • I don't mind the message, but I hate the messenger (BLM) and the latter is a bigger deal to me than the former
  • my xxx served in the military and they disrespect my xxx by kneeling during the anthem, not giving revenge to the flag, burning the flag, etc.

Last fiddled with by rogue on 2020-10-05 at 19:56
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Old 2020-10-05, 22:53   #5
S485122
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Carnivore View Post
...
Why do you keep trying to turn this into a race issue when it's a police brutality issue?
...
Why are domestic violence and feminicide associated ? Because these "problems" shows a correlation to gender and sex.

There is a police abuse of power problem. IMO it was able to grow because some parts of the population didn't count (in the USA, native Americans, imported humans treated as property, immigrants from "lesser" origin... But few other countries are immune of bigottry in one form or another.) Those non-(fully-)humans could be beaten, sometimes to death, burned, shot, hanged, dismembered. The law enforcement helping or looking elsewhere.

The "race" and other distinctions enforced (?) by the people in power exacerbated the potential for law enforcement abuse of power and facilitated its spread in acts.*

As another poster said : the prevalence of arms amongst some parts of the population doesn't help (diminish the frequency , or, at least the gravity, of the "incidents").

Jacob

* A famous American, a legend, said the following in a speech on January of 1886 in New York:
"I suppose I should be ashamed to say that I take the Western view of the Indian. I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth."
The famous American was a young Theodore Roosevelt reflecting the "good sense" ?, public opinion ?, vote gathering slogan ?, of the period :-( He was hinting at the possibility of shame, was that enough progress ?
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Old 2020-10-06, 00:32   #6
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From what I've read, there's a significant race issue in unarmed subjects/suspects/perpetrators killed by police.

But, in addition to police brutality, there also are, and have been, racial issues in the enactment of laws. The Mann Act was passed primarily as a way to "get" Jack Johnson (to whom the current president issued a long-overdue pardon). Nixon's "War on Drugs" was conceived as a means to go after war protesters -- and Blacks. The laws against crack cocaine had much higher sentences than those against powdered cocaine.

The crime of rape was for some time punishable by death in some states. If memory serves, only black men were ever sentenced to death under those laws.

And, let us not forget state laws about the right to vote.

I will leave it to someone else to go into racial bias in other aspects of the legal process -- which subjects law enforcement chooses to make contact with, charging decisions, bail decisions, etc.
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Old 2020-10-06, 15:29   #7
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Texas officer charged with murder in fatal store shooting
Quote:
WOLFE CITY, Texas (AP) β€” A white police officer has been charged with murder in the fatal shooting of a Black man following a reported disturbance at a convenience store in a small East Texas town over the weekend, authorities said.

Jonathan Price was walking away from Wolfe City Police Officer Shaun Lucas when Lucas opened fire Saturday night, killing Price, the Texas Rangers said.

Lucas, 22, was booked Monday into the Hunt County Jail on Monday night, the Texas Rangers said in a statement released by the Texas Department of Public Safety. Jail records show bail was set at $1 million.
<snip>
Police didn't release details about the disturbance, but family and friends of Price said Monday that the one-time college football player was intervening in a domestic disturbance when he was shot.

"When police arrived, I'm told, he raised his hands and attempted to explain what was going on," said civil rights attorney Lee Merritt in a Facebook posting. "Police fired Tasers at him and when his body convulsed from the electrical current, they 'perceived a threat' and shot him to death."
No race issue to see here, folks. Move along...
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Old 2020-10-06, 17:21   #8
The Carnivore
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus View Post
No race issue to see here, folks. Move along...
It is strange that race issues involving law enforcement are confined to cops targeting blacks. Why isn't "Brown Lives Matter" a common slogan? There's a long history of police violence against Latinos, but you barely hear anything about that:
https://time.com/5869568/latinos-police-violence/
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Old 2020-10-06, 17:56   #9
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I think that the fair question to ask of a conservative is this: What do these groups seeking social justice need to do before you listen to them and are willing to act on their behalf?

Inevitably the answer falls into one of the following categories:
  • they don't see the problem
  • no response
  • a list of impossible actions
  • a list of actions that keeps changing

In short there is no action as there is no path to even get to the table.
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Old 2020-10-06, 18:03   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue View Post
I think that the fair question to ask of a conservative is this: What do these groups seeking social justice need to do before you listen to them and are willing to act on their behalf?

Inevitably the answer falls into one of the following categories:
  • they don't see the problem
  • no response
  • a list of impossible actions
  • a list of actions that keeps changing

In short there is no action as there is no path to even get to the table.
I'm not trying to be persnickety here, but I believe "no response" would be an appropriate response from a true conservative. "You are telling me you have a problem; why do I have to do anything about it? If you want change, win an election and pass legislation by persuading fellow citizens of the righteousness of your cause. I'm listening, but maybe I won't promise you my vote because I want to hear what your political opponents have to say." Honestly, I would respect that non-response.

Last fiddled with by masser on 2020-10-06 at 18:04
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Old 2020-10-06, 19:39   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masser View Post
I'm not trying to be persnickety here, but I believe "no response" would be an appropriate response from a true conservative. "You are telling me you have a problem; why do I have to do anything about it? If you want change, win an election and pass legislation by persuading fellow citizens of the righteousness of your cause. I'm listening, but maybe I won't promise you my vote because I want to hear what your political opponents have to say." Honestly, I would respect that non-response.
Your answer would better fit a question posed as this: "What do these groups seeking social justice need to do before you are willing to act on their behalf?" as it assumes that the person being asked the question has not made up their mind.

Very few of the conservatives I have talked to have no opinion. They have already made up their mind that those protesting for social justice are terrorists, maxists, antifa, etc. My interpretation of "no response" is "there is nothing you can say or do to convince me to work on behalf of social justice".
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