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Old 2005-11-17, 14:52   #1
drakkar67
 
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hi
I'm looking for a distributed project for my 5 P4 boxes (3 of them do not have connection). Now they are working for Riesel Sieve Project but because of some reasons it's no more a fun project (for me). I've been following PSP for more than 3 months and PSP is one of the projects I want to join. But before joining I want to confirm some points below

1. Can the admins guarantee they won't abandon my ranges without a warning? (I lost more than 50 k/n pairs in Riesel Sieve so that's not fun.)
2. Are the stats reliable and updated regularly? Will I get credit for all my works done?
3. Will the admins share their plans with the contributors? (I don't want to be forced to double check like in SoB. That may be I good idea but I want to have some choices.)

thanks for the answers

drakkar67
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Old 2005-11-17, 15:52   #2
ltd
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drakkar67
hi
I'm looking for a distributed project for my 5 P4 boxes (3 of them do not have connection). Now they are working for Riesel Sieve Project but because of some reasons it's no more a fun project (for me). I've been following PSP for more than 3 months and PSP is one of the projects I want to join. But before joining I want to confirm some points below

1. Can the admins guarantee they won't abandon my ranges without a warning? (I lost more than 50 k/n pairs in Riesel Sieve so that's not fun.)
2. Are the stats reliable and updated regularly? Will I get credit for all my works done?
3. Will the admins share their plans with the contributors? (I don't want to be forced to double check like in SoB. That may be I good idea but I want to have some choices.)

thanks for the answers

drakkar67
Ok i will try to give you some answers how wse handle things here at PSP.
To point 1:

The handling of reservations depends on the way you make the reservation.
For sieving your reservation will stay until you have finished your range. The only thing i expect is that i receive a mail every month or so saying " i am still working at that range". If i don't hear from a contributor for around 2 months i will try to contact him via forum or if possible mail to get an information if he still wants to finish the range.

For PRP testing there are two ways possible.
a. You make your reservations via the llrnet server. The server is configured to distribute a workunit automaticaly to somebody else if it is not returned for a week.
b. You make a reservation in the PRP reservation forum for a range of your own. Then the same rules as for sieving apply. So nobody will reshedule your range until you tell me that you have abandoned your range.

To 2:
I try to update the stats every day. But to be honest due to the fact that this is still semi automatic there can be times when i can not manage a daily update due to real live problems.( This is normally a maximun outage of one day) When there is a stats outage due to a holiday on my side i drop a note in the forum ( See another forum entry about this weekends outage)
For points given for your work the following rules apply.
For sieving: The first person returning a factor gets the point. So if by chance two siever on different reserved ranges find a factor for the same k/n pair the first returned result gets the points. ( This is something that is really rare)
If you return results for a range reserved by somebody else your results will be dropped.

For PRP. If you are on the llrnet server: The person with the reservation gets the points. So if you return your results after the seven days the next person gets the points.
For manual PRP reservation: The person who has the reservation on the forum is the only one who can get points for the tests.

If you return results for a range reserved by somebody else your result will be countwd as second pass tests.


To 3: I will do my best to make all decissions in cooperation with all the contributors. I made once the error to think that a in my point of view neccessary stats modification was clear to everybody and then i found out that some of the users stopped contributing due to this modifications. So i think learned from this. Double check on this project for example will allways be a manual thing. So you can decide if you want to do it or not.

There will be no saying that anyone must do PRP,p-1,ecm, sieving.... You will allways have the choice.

I think for you a manual reservation of some ranges would be the best as you have no automatic timeout. Disadvantage of this is that you will have to make some things manual.

I hope my answers help you to decide if you liek our project enough to contribute.

If you have more questions please ask,

Lars

P.S. I will be out of town from friday to sunday so answers either today or sunday evening.
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Old 2005-11-17, 16:17   #3
Citrix
 
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Just to mention that if you wanted to run LLRnet but wanted to return results in a few months then, you could also run your own LLRnet server.


Citrix

edit: if you do not mind my asking, what is the speed of your p4's?

Last fiddled with by Citrix on 2005-11-17 at 16:21
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Old 2005-11-17, 22:20   #4
drakkar67
 
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Quote:
Just to mention that if you wanted to run LLRnet but wanted to return results in a few months then, you could also run your own LLRnet server.


Citrix

edit: if you do not mind my asking, what is the speed of your p4's?
I'm trying to submit results every week but sometimes I'm out for work. So I can submit every two weeks. And I also prefer to use LLR instead of LLRnet on most of the machines because of the speed advantage.

I don't know exactly but I think 1 P4 2.8 db core, 2 P4 2.66 (laptop), 1 P4 1.6, 2 P4 2.4, 1 P4 1.6M (laptop), and some more P4's but I think its hard to use them in dc's because I don't want to force my employees. And I don't exactly know how effective I can use those machines.
I have some retired PIII's. If I can find a place I'll put them in sieving.
And 2 G5's, 2 G4's and 1 G3 (which can be used at weekends) but sadly I couldn't find a good math project for them.

I can say that these machines can test about 25-30 k/n pairs of 196 K FFT length daily.

I've contributed GIMPS for about 7 years with just one machine. But that's an infinite project. SOB, riesel and PSP are (theoretically) finite projects. So I joined SOB but I hated its client and the way the admins' choices. I joined Riesel but I lost about 50 pairs because of some faults. I join these projects JUST FOR FUN. But loosing 50 pairs (because of whatever the reason) is just FRUSTRATION.

So, before making a decision I wanted to clarify some points. Actually, I don't want to contribute just by cycles but also for example I want to run a Turkish (I live in Turkey) version of a PSP web site or something else.

I have one more question. Maybe I can find the answer in the forum but I have no time to search for it. Scoring formula... Does it give the same score for a unit time of work. A bad example is SOB... lower the FFT size, lower the score for a unit of time.

thanks
drakkar67
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Old 2005-11-18, 04:47   #5
Citrix
 
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You can try the free trial version for mac's
http://www.iemulator.com

I do not know if it works or not. Try proth_sieve and PRP. For floating point they say you can get 3.4Ghz etc, see the FAQ.

Let me know what happens.

Good luck and welcome to the project,
Citrix


PS: ltd will answer the rest of your questions, I do not have an answer for the stats question. Also you can make a turkish website if you want, I have no problem with that.
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Old 2005-11-18, 04:59   #6
Citrix
 
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Try

http://cordney.com/QemuX/download/


THis one is free.

Citrix
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Old 2005-11-18, 07:38   #7
ltd
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drakkar67
I have one more question. Maybe I can find the answer in the forum but I have no time to search for it. Scoring formula... Does it give the same score for a unit time of work. A bad example is SOB... lower the FFT size, lower the score for a unit of time.

thanks
drakkar67
I am at my office so i can not look up the exact formula but if you want it i can send you the calculation next week. Here a short description about stats creation.

There are two different formulas.

1. Sieving: Points given take into account the n value removed and the factor found. You get more points for higher n and for larger factors.
The maxmimum points you can get per factor is 6000. This was done due to the fact that else a lucky "p-1" factor would give you far to many points.
There is a possibility that the maximum points will be changed in the future.
This comes out of two reasons. The 6000 was set when our maximum n was 20m. The second reason will be a new siever that allows higher sieving then ~1000T.

2. PRP: Points are calculated as depending on the n value tested On the long run my tests showed that the formula is fair in the range n>200K to n<15M.
For n outside this range the formula tends not to give enough points. For the n<200K this is no problem as most of them are done by Citrix or myself.
For n>15M we have several years before we have to revisit the formula to make it fair again. I said the formula is fair on the long run because it does not take into account the points where a fft change takes place. So short before and after a fft change you get a little bit to many or not enough points per n.
But due to the fact that there are not that many fft changes and i also have no idea how to put that into a formula that is fair i made the decission to ignore the problem.

To make reservations easier for people with higher performance it is also possible to reserve ranges with a special size. On request i can build for eaxmple reservations that span "delta n"=25000 where the normal reservation has a "delta n"=1000 or you can reserve a special k that you like to test from the first unreserved n to whatever n max you want.

Hope my answers help,

Lars

Last fiddled with by ltd on 2005-11-18 at 07:39
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Old 2005-11-18, 11:05   #8
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Quote:
And 2 G5's, 2 G4's and 1 G3 (which can be used at weekends) but sadly I couldn't find a good math project for them.
I'm working on a siever (well, porting proth_sieve) to G4 (should, I think, be compatible with G3) and then in a months' time my G5 should be delivered and it should be quite quick to move it over to native 64-bit G5.

Siever will work for Riesel, PSP, SoB and 321, although the initial versions will not be able to sieve both Sierpinski (SoB, PSP) and Riesel (Riesel, 321) at the same time but I am planning to do this.

I intend to finish off the G4 version in the next few weeks (it will run on a G5 but will be nowhere near as fast the the 64-bit G5 version will be). It will be safe to run this sieve to p = 2^51 and, with a bit more work on the Eratosthenes sieve code it should go all the way to 2^63.
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Old 2005-11-18, 11:14   #9
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http://hpc.sourceforge.net/index2.php

Might help you in writting the sieve. You can make other things than CPU do your work!

Citrix
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Old 2005-11-18, 12:47   #10
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Thanks for the link but I've looked into Altivec stuff before and because of it's single precision limitation it isn't that much help.

To multiply two 64-bit numbers you just have too many intermediate values to add up and carry (the altivec would have to perform 36 multiples and then add these up into 6 result registers) for it to be worth while.
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Old 2005-11-18, 13:45   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drakkar67
And 2 G5's, 2 G4's and 1 G3 (which can be used at weekends) but sadly I couldn't find a good math project for them.
Try the PIES project. With a 2.5 GHz G5, you can perform a PRP test on a 100,000 digit number in 3 minutes. G5s are the best choice for that project. I used mine to find more than a dozen primes for that project. The G4/G3 can be used as well, but the PRP tests take longer as the FPU isn't as good as the G5.
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