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Old 2014-05-07, 06:00   #1
jasong
 
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"Jason Goatcher"
Mar 2005

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Default The US is not a democracy, and the difference is important

The following is a little disjointed, but hopefully I'll make my point.


The Founding Fathers knew that communism and socialism were really bad ideas, and why any form of absolute power was always bad. Most people wouldn't say it so harshly, but people are assholes. Me, you, everybody, we want what we want, and damn everyone else. Communism only works if people get into it voluntarily, and even then there are problems.

The US is a republic, not a democracy, and the difference is of paramount importance. Some say it's a democratic republic, but this dangerous nonsense that needs to be challenged. In a "pure" democracy(I think a pure democracy should be the only definition of a democracy, and people should hate the idea) mob rule is the, um, rule. You can just vote what you want and bring the country down in the process, probably unintentionally. In a republic, it's a nation of written law, the law means what it says and says what it means. If a law is vague or contradicts another part, that aspect of the law is void, so it exists but shouldn't be respected as law until it's modified to deal with it's problems. Case law is not, and should never be, the answer in a republic. We appoint our lawmakers to make the laws, not the judges, the judges responsibility is to read and apply, not interpret, the law. Ultimately, they should act kind of like accountants, not really making decisions, but just doing what they're supposed to do. I believe the reason this country is such a clusterfuck is that judges are being respected as lawmakers, something that exists, but doesn't have any laws to support it.

A perfect example of the harm being done is the situation with the IRS. You can be put in jail for not paying income tax, but Title 26(the title of Income tax Federal law) tells a radically different story than what the IRS says is true. To be honest, most American citizens have never actually owed income tax, and any American citizen that has never worked for the federal government does not owe even one cent of American social security tax. When a business you are employed at removes social security tax from your paycheck without your consent, they are unknowingly stealing from you, and giving it to the government.

You say, but Jason, you have no proof of this, you're just spouting nonsense. But the proof is in the law. People say the 16th Amendment justifies the removing of taxes from the paycheck, but in literal fact it didn't add, change or abolish any of the laws that came before it. The 16th Amendment is stated in an intentionally confusing way so that people think the explanation they're given is the correct one, that it allows the federal government to tax American citizens. It does no such thing, it is simply a restatement of the laws that exist with some points left out in order to confuse people. It states that the federal government can directly tax income, but our general concept of income is different from the definition of income used by The Internal Revenue Code. We tend to think of a paycheck as income, but that definition does not agree with the codes definition, which was removed, with no reason given decades ago.(I want to say 1986, but please don't assume this is reliable statement) The proper definition of income is profit, where you make money from someone else's work, so stocks and bonds could be considered profit, and if you owned a business, that could be considered profit. But the Internal Revenue Code takes it a couple steps further. You only owe income tax on foreign earned money, and even then only above a certain amount.

You say, Jason, you're a moron, people go to jail for not paying income tax, and you would be right that people go to jail. But the imprisonment is illegal and is an abuse of an American citizens rights.

So what am I asking you to do? I am asking you to Google for more information. There is an organization called The Save A Patriot Fellowship, at http://save-a-patriot.org maybe without the dashes. I have a file I ripped from their audio cassette tapes from 1991 onto my hard drive that I would like to put online as a torrent, though I've forgotten how. Ultimately, I'm hoping I can get permission to obtain more files that I can post online, possibly converted for easier consumption. Ultimately, the law isn't patented, so at least that aspect is free, but it helps to have a guide when you're exploring these things, and regular law school tends to give a distorted view of tax law, and probably a few other things. Ultimately, the law is the law, and comprehending it isn't hard, but simply tedious. Give me your average ten year old, except with a good attention span and a desire to learn the law, and they could probably learn everything they need to know about tax law given time and the right materials.

The website encourages people to stop paying the illegal taxes, but there's always the possibility of going to jail. Whether it's an illegal abuse of power or not, jail is no fun. But the Bible says you can't hide a lamp under a bush and expect it to be effective, you've got to arrange it prominently to light up the whole room. So I'm asking you to be like me and be that annoying boor who loudly states his opinion about everything, unless of course you have a superior method, lol. So do what your accountant tells you and try to avoid letting him find out you secretly hate him. Meanwhile, spread the truth and maybe we can shame the judges into returning us to the country that we're supposed to be.

I've left lots of stuff out that I'll probably need to add to continue the discussion, but I'll add them as needed.

I may have also made a misstatement about the 16th Amendment, I'm not sure if it actually mentions the word income, I'll have to look that up. Because of American high schools, most Americans have a disjointed view of the 16th Amendment, assuming direct taxation refers to citizens even though there's nothing in the 16th Amendment that could even refer to a human being. People say, but that's simply assumed, and it is assumed, but only by people who've been lied to.

Last fiddled with by jasong on 2014-05-07 at 06:03
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Old 2014-05-07, 06:19   #2
philmoore
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasong View Post
The Founding Fathers knew that communism and socialism were really bad ideas, and why any form of absolute power was always bad.
I was not aware that either communism or socialism existed, either as ideas or as actual political systems before the 1800's. I hope you can enlighten us as to the instances that Thomas Jefferson and his contemporaries were so concerned about. Certainly they were alarmed about the abuses of the monarchical forms of government, which was a motivation for limiting our presidents to be elected for four-year terms. Socialism in the sense of property being shared has been around for millennia and was practiced by Pythagoreans and many early Christians, among others, but I am assuming that you are talking about the sense in which Marx described it. Please elaborate.
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Old 2014-05-07, 08:30   #3
axn
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen...s_Constitution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_...onal_law_sense
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Old 2014-05-07, 10:52   #4
R.D. Silverman
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philmoore View Post
I was not aware that either communism or socialism existed, either as ideas or as actual political systems before the 1800's. .
They didn't. In typical ignorant religious right fashion, jasong makes
up facts to suit his imagination.
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Old 2014-05-07, 11:49   #5
kladner
 
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Quote:
I may have also made a misstatement about the 16th Amendment, I'm not sure if it actually mentions the word income, I'll have to look that up.
So why didn't you? axn found it quickly enough, I reckon.

Quote:
jasong makes up facts to suit his imagination.
"Income tax is a scam" is actually a fairly common notion in some circles. These ramblings are hardly original.
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Old 2014-05-07, 12:27   #6
Fusion_power
 
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Original support for the 16th amendment was based on the concept that rich people did not pay their fair share under the direct tax system. Tell me if rich people pay a fair share today?

Corporations were also supposed to be taxed as "entities". With a global economy and offshoring of profits, do entities like GE pay a fair share of taxes? FYI, GE paid $0 of U.S. taxes for the last several years.
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Old 2014-05-07, 12:41   #7
BudgieJane
 
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I shouldn't be posting in this thread, because I don't understand it.

What's all this "global economy and offshoring of profits"? Why not tax an entity (person, company, corporation, etc.) on the "profits" they make in your country, with no transferring goods into or out of or within the country from other parts of your entity except at current market values, and with all import duties paid, and no transferring cash at all? No refunds for loss making, no deferring to next or future years, no offsetting against another entity in the corporation, ....

See, I told you I'm ignorant on this subject.
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Old 2014-05-07, 13:24   #8
chappy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudgieJane View Post
I shouldn't be posting in this thread, because I don't understand it.

<snip>

See, I told you I'm ignorant on this subject.
Don't worry too much about it BJ, neither does the OP.


Those who don't remember the forum are destined to repeat it, and repeat it...
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Old 2014-05-07, 13:47   #9
NBtarheel_33
 
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As a Christian, I am sure that you are familiar with Mark 12:17. Jesus himself advocated the payment of taxes by the citizenry.

As for the legality of US income tax, I am sure that Willie Nelson would love to clear things up for you over a beer or two. You will also note in various IRS materials that the arguments that you make above are not in any way novel, and in fact have special frivolity penalties attached to them, lest a taxpayer try to hide behind them.

By the way, what do you make of sales tax, property tax, school tax, car tax, excise tax, alcohol and tobacco tax, luxury tax, estate tax, etc.? Personally, I think that it is disgusting that Americans never own their homes, even if they pay their mortgages in full (try skipping a real estate tax payment and see what happens!). Ditto for estate taxes, where >=50% of someone's (previously taxed!) legacy can be seized by the government rather than being rightfully passed on to the heirs.

The problem that I see with this issue is not the tax as much as how the government treats the money and the taxpayers. I have no trouble with the public all kicking in to build and maintain infrastructure that we all need in order to be a first-world nation (for instance, I agree with many state Departments of Transportation that a significant fuel tax increase is needed to maintain our sprawling yet crumbling highway network). What is wrong is pure waste - the $100,000 GSA "meetings" in Vegas, millions of dollars in grant money for nebulous research (what happens if a monkey is made to jog 12 miles a day?), or even billions for never-ending quagmire military offenses in nations that aren't interested in our presence, even under the guise of "protection" or "peacekeeping".

Unfortunately, as anyone who has ever witnessed a business trip or an insurance claim can attest, splurging and waste are endemic any time someone else, especially a faceless entity (e.g. a corporation or government) is footing the bill from seemingly infinite funds. That is why my suggestion to anyone (including my own parents who just shouted $4,300+ to Uncle Sam last month) is to take advantage of as many legal means as possible to lower your taxes (investments, businesses, mortgage interest, etc. - a second home works wonders as a tax deduction). But at the end of it all, when you have a number - how much you get to keep - just think of that as your salary, and think of the tax money over and above that as money paid to the government on your behalf by your employer. For example, if you make $60,000 per year, but have a $15,000 tax liability, your salary is really $45,000. You're never going to see that $15,000, and your employer has already paid it, so just forget it. Of course, if your salary seems unreasonably low at this point, then it's time to have the infamous "how about a raise?" talk with the boss. But then keep in mind that every raise he gives you means that he has to give a corresponding raise to the government! In the end, I truly believe that is about the most sane way to think about taxes. Otherwise, yes, every $900 hammer purchased by the Pentagon, or every $100,000 junket in Air Force One, is going to blow your mind.

Just render unto Caesar (or Washington) what is Caesar's (or Washington's) and be done.
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Old 2014-05-07, 14:08   #10
BudgieJane
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NBtarheel_33 View Post
As a Christian, I
So far, so good. You are a Christian. (So was that fellow who started the mutiny on the Bounty, but that's another story.)

Quote:
am sure that you are familiar with Mark 12:17.
No. Why should I be?

Quote:
Jesus himself
Rumour has it that he didn't exist. You're not confusing him with that naughty boy, Brian, by any chance? Someone made a film about his life. You should go and see it. See if you can figure out the difference between the Judaean People's Front and the People's Front of Judaea.

Quote:
advocated the payment of taxes by the citizenry.

As for the legality of US income tax, I am sure that Willie Nelson would love to clear things up for you over a beer or two. You will also note in various IRS materials that the arguments that you make above are not in any way novel, and in fact have special frivolity penalties attached to them, lest a taxpayer try to hide behind them.

By the way, what do you make of sales tax, property tax, school tax, car tax, excise tax, alcohol and tobacco tax, luxury tax, estate tax, etc.? Personally, I think that it is disgusting that Americans never own their homes, even if they pay their mortgages in full (try skipping a real estate tax payment and see what happens!). Ditto for estate taxes, where >=50% of someone's (previously taxed!) legacy can be seized by the government rather than being rightfully passed on to the heirs.
If you have got a problem with this get yourself and a few like-minded friends elected into Congress and do something about it. If you don't, then you haven't.

Quote:
The problem that I see with this issue is not the tax as much as how the government treats the money and the taxpayers. I have no trouble with the public all kicking in to build and maintain infrastructure that we all need in order to be a first-world nation (for instance, I agree with many state Departments of Transportation that a significant fuel tax increase is needed to maintain our sprawling yet crumbling highway network). What is wrong is pure waste - the $100,000 GSA "meetings" in Vegas, millions of dollars in grant money for nebulous research (what happens if a monkey is made to jog 12 miles a day?), or even billions for never-ending quagmire military offenses in nations that aren't interested in our presence, even under the guise of "protection" or "peacekeeping".

Unfortunately, as anyone who has ever witnessed a business trip or an insurance claim can attest, splurging and waste are endemic any time someone else, especially a faceless entity (e.g. a corporation or government) is footing the bill from seemingly infinite funds. That is why my suggestion to anyone (including my own parents who just shouted $4,300+ to Uncle Sam last month) is to take advantage of as many legal means as possible to lower your taxes (investments, businesses, mortgage interest, etc. - a second home works wonders as a tax deduction). But at the end of it all, when you have a number - how much you get to keep - just think of that as your salary, and think of the tax money over and above that as money paid to the government on your behalf by your employer. For example, if you make $60,000 per year, but have a $15,000 tax liability, your salary is really $45,000. You're never going to see that $15,000, and your employer has already paid it, so just forget it. Of course, if your salary seems unreasonably low at this point, then it's time to have the infamous "how about a raise?" talk with the boss. But then keep in mind that every raise he gives you means that he has to give a corresponding raise to the government! In the end, I truly believe that is about the most sane way to think about taxes. Otherwise, yes, every $900 hammer purchased by the Pentagon, or every $100,000 junket in Air Force One, is going to blow your mind.

Just render unto Caesar (or Washington) what is Caesar's (or Washington's) and be done.
Ah, I see it now. You are in the wrong country. You need to emigrate to somewhere where taxes are lower. Have you thought of Dubai, or Switzerland, or maybe Russia, or Eritrea, ...?
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Old 2014-05-07, 14:12   #11
NBtarheel_33
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
FYI, GE paid $0 of U.S. taxes for the last several years.
I have thought about this and have come to the conclusion that while it makes an impressive sound bite, it is not entirely sensible. GE does have US operations, in which they employ US workers and make US-based purchases. All of these actions are taxable in one (more likely many) way or another. So in some sense, GE does end up paying into the US tax system. A related question: What would the effect be on the US economy if GE ceased all operations and employment in the US?

As for the expatriation of corporate cash overseas, this is a loophole that is commonly used by all large corporations. Apple is going to issue a bond to facilitate a stock buyback in the coming months. On the surface, this is ludicrous. Apple has $150 Billion (with a B!) in cash. But if they repatriate that money to the US, they face a huge tax bill. Now, I am an Apple shareholder (all 3 shares). Frankly, I'd rather have a piece of that $150 Billion in my pocket (where, by the way, lo and behold, it will be taxed!) than in Uncle Sam's pocket.

So perhaps the best way around this is "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Become a shareholder. Then every sneaky, underhanded corporate move to dodge taxes is actually a gift. Another example: Fed up with hearing about ExxonMobil's obscene profits while we pay almost $4 per gallon at the pump, I bought some ExxonMobil shares. Now when oil jumps in price, I smile and think of fatter dividends.

AT&T pays a 5%+ annual dividend if your cell phone bill has you down... The banks will be paying a big fat goose egg for years to come.

Last fiddled with by NBtarheel_33 on 2014-05-07 at 14:15 Reason: s/an/a
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