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Dubslow 2012-12-24 19:31

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;322541]Every thread of any relevance get hijacked.[/QUOTE]

Case in point.

chappy 2012-12-24 19:54

[QUOTE=cheesehead;322543]So ... I'm supposed not to point out glaring omissions in your arguments? You were talking about apples as though there were no other fruit, so I pointed out the existence of other fruit [i]which had a bearing on the relationship you were exploring[/i].[/QUOTE]

No, you are supposed to have the ability to read the discussion between Zeta-flux and couch your responses to that discussion in light of what has been said, not in light of what you want it to have said.

Zeta and I seem to be at an impasse right now in our discussion. Is there anyone who has another line of reasoning re:Gun Control and Gun Violence to discuss? Beuller? Beuller? Ahh, I see our very own Cheesehead has his hand up! The floor recognizes the Gentleman from the land of the blessed Cheesemakers.

chappy 2012-12-24 19:57

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;322541]Every thread of any relevance gets hijacked.[/QUOTE]

While I appreciate the implication that my voice has relevance, we both know I am the class(less) clown. And even in it's inevitability we rage, rage against the road more traveled.

chalsall 2012-12-24 20:45

[QUOTE=chappy;322545]Zeta and I seem to be at an impasse right now in our discussion. Is there anyone who has another line of reasoning re:Gun Control and Gun Violence to discuss?[/QUOTE]

It is perhaps worth mentioning Canada. There, guns are seriously controlled. And while they do have gun violence, it is nowhere near as bad as the US of A.

I bring this forward because Canadians are subjected to almost exactly the same violent media influences -- movies, TV and video games. Further, they were exposed to almost exactly the same risks from wildlife and indigenous peoples while they [strike]stole[/strike] settled the land.

Seems like a fairly well controlled test case. In one country you have strong gun control, and not many people die because of guns. In another country with a very similar environment you don't have gun control, and many people die because of guns.

QED.

bsquared 2012-12-24 20:51

[QUOTE=chalsall;322550]It is perhaps worth mentioning Canada. There, guns are seriously controlled. And while they do have gun violence, it is nowhere near as bad as the US of A.

I bring this forward because Canadians are subjected to almost exactly the same violent media influences -- movies, TV and video games. Further, they were exposed to almost exactly the same risks from wildlife and indigenous peoples while they [strike]stole[/strike] settled the land.

Seems like a fairly well controlled test case. In one country you have strong gun control, and not many people die because of guns. In another country with a very similar environment you don't have gun control, and many people die because of guns.

QED.[/QUOTE]

The US has a lot more people than Canada. Do you happen to have per-capita comparisons? It is perhaps also more murky given that free public health care is available in Canada. I'm not pretending to be an expert on Canada, but I don't believe the test case, or any test case, is as well controlled as you think it is. Gun-culture is, well, culture, and there are a lot of facets to any culture.

chalsall 2012-12-24 21:12

[QUOTE=bsquared;322551]The US has a lot more people than Canada. Do you happen to have per-capita comparisons?[/QUOTE]

Will [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate"]this do[/URL]?

[QUOTE=bsquared;322551]It is perhaps also more murky given that free public health care is available in Canada. I'm not pretending to be an expert on Canada, but I don't believe the test case, or any test case, is as well controlled as you think it is. Gun-culture is, well, culture, and there are a lot of facets to any culture.[/QUOTE]

Not quite clear what you mean by this. Is your point that the fact that any Canadian can get treatment after being shot somehow lessens gun violence?

xilman 2012-12-24 21:26

I see that our dear old friend [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-20838729"]Piers Moron[/URL] has been ruffling American feathers.

A few tens of thousands want him deported because he exercised his First Amendment rights.

bsquared 2012-12-24 21:31

[QUOTE=chalsall;322552] Will [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate"]this do[/URL]?

[/QUOTE]

Sure, thanks. I see there is about a factor of 2 difference. Which, IMO, is not that large, and could certainly be caused or influenced by lots of different factors. Better gun control is probably one of those, but not the only one. As I've said before I'm all for better/stricter gun control, but I just don't see it as a nice neat QED for the problem at hand.

[QUOTE=chalsall;322552]
Not quite clear what you mean by this. Is your point that the fact that any Canadian can get treatment after being shot somehow lessens gun violence?[/QUOTE]

No, my point was that there might be more opportunities for people with violent personalities to get help *before* they start slaughtering people.

chalsall 2012-12-24 21:37

[QUOTE=bsquared;322555]Sure, thanks. I see there is about a factor of 2 difference. Which, IMO, is not that large, and could certainly be caused or influenced by lots of different factors. Better gun control is probably one of those, but not the only one. As I've said before I'm all for better/stricter gun control, but I just don't see it as a nice neat QED for the problem at hand.[/QUOTE]

Actually, for homicides there is a 4.9 difference (3.7 vs. 0.76).

[QUOTE=bsquared;322555]No, my point was that there might be more opportunities for people with violent personalities to get help *before* they start slaughtering people.[/QUOTE]

OK. That makes sense.

Although I did find it very strange how strongly the US of A's Republicans were against universal health care....

gd_barnes 2012-12-24 22:10

[QUOTE=xilman;322553]I see that our dear old friend [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-20838729"]Piers Moron[/URL] has been ruffling American feathers.

A few tens of thousands want him deported because he exercised his First Amendment rights.[/QUOTE]

I take it that you do not like Piers? I personally like him quite a bit but even as a gun control advocate, I believe that he has been too strong on this issue, even going so far as to call at least one gun rights person "stupid" on the air. He's making the gun control folks seem a little extreme. But IMHO, the people who signed that petition make the gun rights folks seem a little extreme. It is these same people who would argue 1st admentment rights if Piers had the opposite opinion about gun rights/control.

I think that all debates about potentially emotional topics would be better served if all people showed at least some respect for the other side's views and not call them "stupid" or "dumb" or "morons" etc. That is where I think Piers has erred. That said, I have found this thread has remained remarkably cordial considering the contentious nature of the topic.

I have learned quite a bit by reading this thread and in my own private debate with a gun rights advocate who even says "Owning guns is a God given right", which seems a little extreme. It is why I enjoy reading debates on a number of issues and occassionally enjoy having one myself (but only rarely). There's always something that can be learned.


Gary

NBtarheel_33 2013-01-26 10:01

[QUOTE=xilman;322553]I see that our dear old friend [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-20838729"]Piers Moron[/URL] has been ruffling American feathers.

A few tens of thousands want him deported because he exercised his First Amendment rights.[/QUOTE]

Bah, those are just folks that have never been "properly in love"!


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